Minutes of meeting of Working Together Steering Group (WTSG)

24 June 2009

HM Revenue & Customs, 100 Parliament Street

Chair - Brian Redford (HMRC)

Agent representatives - Shown collectively as the Working Together Professional Group (WTPG) in these minutes

Derek Allen (DA) - ICAS
Jean Jesty (JJ) - ATT
Brian Palmer (BP) - AAT
Peter Jennings (PJ) - ACCA
Elizabeth Parks (EP) - Independent Administrator for Working Together Professional Group (WTPG)
Martyn Warren (MW) - ICAEW
Anne Wright (AW) - CIOT

HMRC representatives

Geoff Allen (GA) - Business Customer Unit
Melanie Dawes (MD) - Business Tax
Steve Dobbin (SD) - Business Customer Unit
Chris Ford (CF) - Business Customer Unit
Nick Lodge (NL) - Debt Management and Banking
Brian Redford (BR) - Business Customer Unit
Jacqueline Stewart (JS) - Business Customer Unit

1. Welcome, introduction and apologies

1.1 Apologies were received from: Stephen Banyard who was at home recovering from an operation. BR welcomed Chris Ford to the meeting.

1.2 WTPG requested that their good wishes be passed to SB

1.3 BR opened the meeting and welcomed all guest speakers and round the table introductions were made.

2. Minutes of previous meeting and matters arising

2.1 The minutes from the previous meeting are still in draft and it was agreed that we would aim to have these finalised week commencing 29 June 2009. BR referred to the open actions per the action point log.

2.2 AP2: Outstanding response to the issues raised by WTPG around the Business Payment Support Service (BPSS): BR confirmed that Nick Lodge was attending the meeting later and was fully briefed on the issues and would therefore be providing an update during his slot.

2.3 AP10: WTPG to nominate a representative to work on the Filing and Payment reminders review: Jean Jesty would represent WTPG and SD agreed to liaise with AMcV.

2.4 AP13: WTPG to write to BR re involvement in the Working with Tax Agents Consultation Document (condoc): WTPG explained that there had been a considerably strong reaction among members of some of the professional bodies to the condoc. BR said that agents needed to remember that the condoc clearly acknowledges the contribution tax agents make and the aim of the consultation was to bring those not so competent to a level HMRC finds acceptable. WTPG feels that as this is more of a policy area the debate was not proper to WTSG and confirmed that formal responses would be sent from the respective professional bodies.

3. Forum with Nick Lodge

3.1 NL opened the forum explaining that he is the Director of Debt Management and Banking which is responsible for banking all payments received by HMRC and tackling tax debt.

3.2 WTPG queried the ongoing provision of payslips as a result of agent’s no longer receiving Client Account Information Sheets. WTPG highlighted the usefulness of the payslip for agents and the benefits for HMRC for example avoid letters accompanying cheques.

3.3 There was a discussion around electronic payments and WTPG explained that not all institutes offer Internet banking and not all customers have the facility to Internet bank and BR acknowledged that this is something that would have to be reviewed at a later stage.

3.4 NL explained that it was priority to get the right payment to the right account and confirmed that the publication of the payslips would be ongoing for each payment peak.

3.5 WTPG flagged the possibility of problems in using the existing Bank of England payslips now that HMRC’s banking arrangements have changed and NL agreed to check the position and report back.

Action 1: NL to check position and report back.

3.6 WTPG highlighted the signposting of information on the HMRC website could be improved by providing the link to the precise location of the information as opposed to the general website address. It was suggested that a ‘How to do it’ guide that is a signpost sheet should be included in the next Working Together Bulletin (WTB).

Action 2: A signpost sheet to the ‘how to pay’ information should be considered for publication in the next WTB.

3.7 NL gave an update on the BPSS explaining that this is not the only route into Time to Pay (TTP) and outlined the budget plan arrangements coming into effect which will take some of the business away from TTP but not all. NL confirmed that BPSS will be available for as long as it is needed.

3.8 NL explained that TTP carries two risks – access to people who can pay and people not paying but he confirmed that this was being tightly reviewed and asked WTPG to let him know if they had any awareness of places where this is not happening. He confirmed that the rejection level of applications for TTP is quite low – fewer than 10k.

3.9 WTPG highlighted the benefits TTP provides to someone in small business, in that it can keep their business afloat and people are realising how easy a process it is. NL confirmed that they were continuing to see lots of small debts.

3.10 There was a discussion around consistency of approach by Enforcement Office (EO) when looking at a customer’s arrears and the commerciality for customers. NL confirmed that HMRC adopts a consistent approach explaining that TTP is designed for customers to contact HMRC before getting to a position of debt. Before the debt reaches EO, the customer has been given a number of opportunities to comply and their compliance history is taken into account.

3.11 NL confirmed that in respect of the commerciality point, HMRC operate within a legal framework and if someone can’t pay we are guided to what is the best flow to the Exchequer and look only into that particular debt and if the customer can pay, they have to pay.

3.12 NL gave an overview of the pilot to use debt collection agencies. He explained that letters have been sent to debtors informing that if they don’t pay, the debt will be passed to debt collectors. There is no court work or door to door knocking involved in this work, its main purpose is to enable HMRC to benchmark their own capability to report that back into their own business.

3.13 WTPG queried the process where there is no liability and NL explained that the debt collection company will come back to us to establish whether there is actually a debt. A key learning point would be to review how many times the agency has to contact HMRC about this and NL confirmed that HMRC are carrying out checks before contact is made with the debt agency. NL referred to the experience in the DWP arena and the fact that this had worked well.

3.14 It was questioned if the debt agency would interact with any authorised agent and SD said that on his understanding, from attending a meeting where the idea was presented by ICAEW, there would be very few cases in the pilot where an agent was appointed. SD was asked whether the pilot was planning to speak to the other agent represented bodies – SD said he thought so and would find out.

Action 3: SD to ascertain plans for engaging agent representative bodies and report back.

3.15 WTPG explained that it wasn’t always obvious whether payments should be sent to Accounts Office Shipley or Cumbernauld. GA confirmed that an answer to this question already exists and he would arrange to have this response circulated.

Action 4: GA to arrange for the response to be circulated to WTPG members.

4. Discussion papers

4.1 BR provided a service level update and referred WTPG to discussion papers that had been sent to them ahead of the meeting.

4.2 64-8 paper and browser: BR confirmed that CAAT currently have four days processing on hand.

Centralisation of UTRs: CF confirmed that HMRC want to ensure that the process works as effectively and efficiently as possible and confirmed that a further communication on this would be available in a couple of weeks time.

4.3 Post: BR confirmed that there are currently about half a million pieces of post on hand which is below the 750k internal target set for the planned PAYE IT downtime. WTPG members suggested that delays in handling correspondence were still excessive, possibly stretching to months. BR suggested that the figures did not suggest that this should be the case and requested WTPG to provide more detail explaining that we should be gathering evidence to determine the area of HMRC’s business where delays are believed to exist and the kind of delays experienced so that WTSG could focus their attention.

4.4 BR suggested that we should have an agreed note from Customer Operations on the information WTPG could provide perhaps in a questionnaire format and we could start to gather evidence to determine the type of business where delays experienced.

Action 5: SD to contact Customer Operations and consider questionnaire format to gather evidence.

4.5 Security repayments: BR explained that we are still running at about a two-three week delay in respect of repayments selected for security checks and referred to the collaborated communications published in WT35.

4.6 Agent Account Manager/Customer Relations Manager (AAM/CRM): WTPG questioned the similarity of the two roles and CF confirmed that the CRM was affiliated to five of the largest processing offices and are contacted on individual cases on a more reactive basis. The AAM’s role will involve more proactive work with agents. The AAM pilot is being expanded nationwide and we currently have six AAMs in place and a further recruitment is underway to employ another six.

4.7 WTPG acknowledged the AAM as a valuable resource and volunteered to provide feedback. SD confirmed that part of the work identified in going forward with the new model of WT was for him to discuss with CF and his team the AAM role and its fit with WT.

4.8 Contact Centre: call backs: WTPG queried the call back number in the scenario where the Contact Centre Advisers contacts the agent who was unavailable at the time of call. The call back number left by the adviser takes the agent to the main Contact Centre line.

Action 6: SD to pick this point up with Contact Centres.

5. AOB

5.1 WTPG highlighted a problem where over 200 Returns or Notices to File Returns for individuals were issued to a member agent, mainly from one tax office and the only link seems to be that that they are employed by companies where the agent administers the payroll. BR confirmed that this type of issue should be pursued by the CRM but requested AW make referral to the team.

Action 7: AW to provide details to SD to pursue further.

5.2 WTPG queried HMRC’s position on Swine flu, given that NHS guidance for employers says that any staff showing symptoms should be sent or stay at home, and whether this would be considered ‘reasonable excuse’ if the 31 January filing deadline wasn’t met. BR confirmed that each case would be considered on its own merit and said he couldn’t imagine we would be unsympathetic where there were real problems for small practitioners, or if the majority of staff in a tax department were affected.

5.3 WTPG referred to the relatively low awareness of the frequent complex questions in the ADL evaluation paper, which was provided to WTPG ahead of the meeting, saying that the lack of accountability wasn’t well known and we need to work together to communicate this.

5.4 BR confirmed that come September 2009 AESIT may want to engage with WTPG in the Business Tax Tier two strategic direction. ExCom are being consulted in July 2009 and it is hoped that by September 2009 HMRC will be in a position to set out its strategy on what the Department is offering over three-five years. CF suggested a further update be provided at a future WTSG meeting.

5.5 WTPG queried where Returns and correspondence should be sent when an office closed, saying that the route map isn’t clear and BR has suggested that an article in WTB on the main areas of support be considered for inclusion in WTB.

Action 8: Consider article for WTB.

5.6 WTPG queried whether it was possible to implement formal tracking when calling the ADL, similar to the system operated in NAS. BR explained that the Contact Centres record all calls received and asked WTPG to let him know what value assigning a reference number would have and in the meantime HMRC would take an action to check with NAS the reason why they have this facility.

Action 9: WTPG to provide information on what value a tracking system would have within a Contact Centre and JS to establish why NAS have this system in place.

5.7 GA confirmed that the CG34 process is being looked at there has been agreement to centralise this work and a communication on this is planned for the next WTB.

5.8 WTPG expressed their disappointment that it had taken a long time to launch MPPC and notification of the IT downtime had come very late. BR confirmed that HMRC were determined to get it right and as soon as the launch date was announced, this was communicated externally.

6. New WT Model: operation

6.1 It was decided that most of what was scheduled for discussion today around the work needed for the implementation of the new model would be taken forward off-line and SD agreed to track the subjects to the relevant sub-groups and would contact them following the WTSG meeting.

6.2 WTPG gave an overview of the sub-group structure explaining that the rep bodies would supply the resource for each of the four sub-groups and they would be headed up by a member of WTPG (Communications: Jean Jesty. E: Brian Palmer. Local Group: Peter Jennings. Issues Resolution: Anne Wright, Martyn Warren and Brian Palmer). The sub-group structure would support the strategic structure of WTSG.

6.3 SD distributed paper at the meeting and highlighted the timetable of events including the publication date for the new pack on 23 July 2009 and the event being held for HMRC Leads and Co-ordinators in September 2009. SD confirmed that he would engage sub-group leads in taking forward the implementation timetable and will work this up into a business work plan.

6.4 SD highlighted that feedback received from local agents at the events was that they wanted support from their professional bodies. He offered a visit to each of the six professional bodies in July 2009 to ensure their processes fit with the nuts and bolts of the pack. It was agreed that SD would pursue this with the PG sub-group lead.

6.5 WTPG shared their thinking around a 'virtual group'. The idea is to use an agent online publication to reach unaffiliated agents and they would have to work within the WT process. BR highlighted the need for self moderation of issues and each sub-group should propose rules of engagement.

6.6 SD said that he would email WTPG a plan of implementation work.

7. Forum with Melanie Dawes

7.1 MD informed WTPG that she has written an article for Tax Journal setting out where we are in Business Tax (BT) and the work BT do with agents. She acknowledged that working with agents is critical for HMRC and is valuable but there are a small number of agents not fulfilling their role to an acceptable standard.

7.2 MD referred to BT’s strategy over the previous three-five years, referring to the joint effort to revitalise WT and acknowledged that HMRC and agents had a common relationship going forward. The WT processes enables HMRC to receive an early indication of where its processes are going wrong and provides a communications channel for HMRC to confirm key messages to agents.

7.3 BR invited WTPG to discuss their points with MD and the following issues were discussed:

Repayment issues
7.4 WTPG raised the point that it took some time before HMRC business owners would acknowledge there was a delay in issuing repayments selected for security checks despite early warnings. MD confirmed that HMRC truly believed there wasn’t an issue when it was first reported in December 2008. WTPG explained that the timescale of measures mentioned in WT35 were not representative of the timescales actually experienced by WTPG and their members, and that cases encountered by WTPG members showed that serious delays were being experienced by long-established businesses. They felt that if this issue was taken more seriously initially, much of the bad press could have been avoided. WTPG was also concerned that the WTB35 article did not give sufficient information concerning the planned automation of some of the manual checks, such as when they would be implemented, and how much time they would save.

Action 10: BR agreed to update WTPG concerning this.

7.5 MD explained that as a result of serous compliance threats, HMRC had to act and apologised that the level of service was less than what was expected of HMRC.

7.6 WTPG reiterated that it was a particular problem when reviewing client Statements online – there was no indication at all that the repayment might have been delayed for checks. WTSG talked about funding and the capacity for change, HMRC can’t make software changes but was a change of wording to make the message more prominent on the Statement possible? SD confirmed that the business specialists were meeting today to discuss the options of change and WTPG would be kept informed.

7.7 BR confirmed that WTSG would have to come up with tactical solutions where IT changes aren’t possible.

Coding notices
7.8 WTPG raised the timing of the issue of coding notices. WTPG explained that ICAS had suggested two years ago that the timing of the coding notice be moved from January. WTPG highlighted the potential wins for agents and HMRC if the issue was to be moved. WTPG feel that for all customers in Self Assessment HMRC should be able to timetable for coding notices to be issued in February as the customer information will have been captured by 31 January.

7.9 SD explained that as a result of the issues flagged by WTPG, around coding notices, a meeting was held of key stakeholders to work through the list of issues, including the timing issue. It was clear from this meeting that no progress could be made for the 2010 issue. The automatic feed from Self Assessment returns to P2's will come into effect in 2010 and business specialists agreed to actively consider implementing for 2011 and will present their findings to WTPG. MD said that the communications around the 2010 position should be made clear. SD confirmed that the flavour of the meeting was very positive.

Annual report
7.10 WTPG discussed the provision of an annual report for WT and MD confirmed that as WT is a partnership she is happy to support it if it is felt it’s needed. SD explained that the issue resolution and QAQC process should inform the report.

7.11 MD thanked WTPG for clarity on the coding and repayment issues.

Date of next meeting 16 September 2009

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