Minutes of meeting of Working Together Steering Group (WTSG)
18 February 2009
HM Revenue & Customs, 100 Parliament Street
Chair - Steve Dobbin (HMRC)
Agent representatives
Shown collectively as the Working Together Professional Group (WTPG) in these minutes
- Derek Allen (DA) - ICAS
- Jean Jesty (JJ)- ATT
- Richard Mannion (RM) - CIOT
- Richard Shooter (RS) - ICAEW
- Martyn Warren (MW) - ICAEW
- Anne Wright (AW) - CIOT
HMRC representatives
- Paul Abbott - Business Customer Unit
- Steve Dobbin - Business Customer Unit
- Don Macarthur - Business Customer Unit
- Kim Nicholas - Business Customer Unit
- Jacqueline Stewart - Business Customer Unit
1. Welcome, introduction and apologies
1.1 Apologies were received from:
- Stephen Banyard - Business Customer Unit
- Brian Redford - Business Customer Unit
- Brian Palmer - AAT
- Peter Jennings - ACCA
- Aleem Islan - AAT
- Elizabeth Parks - Independent Administrator for Working Together Professional Group (WTPG)
1.2 SD opened the meeting thanking everyone for the work done to date on the recommendations for taking WT forward and confirmed that this meeting was, in the main, to run through the new model of WT.
2. General update
2.1 SD provided update on where we are with WT going forward so far, highlighting that the WT report was produced a little later than intended in December because of the Pre-Budget Report. SD set out the work involved to flesh out the detail during December and January and acknowledged the advice given from WTPG to reconsider the timetable for the WT launch events which are now being re-scheduled for April and May.
2.2 PA led the discussion of the outcome of his and SD’s meeting with senior managers of the Targeted Education and Enabling and Leverage (TEEL) team, explaining the roles and responsibilities of the WT co-ordinator and Lead Role, explaining that everyone was in agreement that TEEL were the right business stream to support and expand the work of WT and that the senior manager of the Changing Capability team wants to take an active role to raise the profile of WT and have given commitment to support WT groups where there is a demand for one.
2.3 WTPG opened discussion around agent representatives at local WT meetings and DA highlighted work underway within ICAS to nominate agent champions and the structure and process envisaged for ICAS members involved in local WT. Discussion then ensued around where we are now in respect of agent representation and the fact that agent bodies are volunteers but all accepted that we would not be in a final position on agent body representation in time for the launch events.
3. Launch events
3.1 KN explained that the aim of the launch events is to launch the new model of WT. She has been working with local WT co-ordinators to bring together local WT agents (one agent from each representative body) and HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) WT personnel - some events were being held in hotels and others in HMRC premises depending on the numbers involved.
3.2 KN provided WTPG with an outline of the workshops with the proviso that this is work in progress and is subject to the production of the material for the WT pack.
3.2 WTPG expressed their commitment to these events and discussed the practicalities of some of the dates proposed in the calendar of events provided at the meeting and made their nominations for a PG member to attend each event.
3.3 WTPG agreed to let SD have feedback on both the draft launch event workshop schedule and the proposed draft invitation letter which were shared with PG members at the meeting. Initial feedback from WTPG was that the workshop schedule proposal looked very good but to reconsider timing for the Quality Assurance/Quality Control slot and the invitation letter to include the WT objective as a headline.
Action 1: WTPG members to feedback to SD by 27 February 2009 on the:
- draft launch event workshop schedule
- the invitation letter
Action 2: SD to let WTPG members have electronic copy of both the workshop schedule and invitation letter.
4. New communications system for issue resolution
4.1 SD referred to the communications paper circulated before Christmas and acknowledged Philippa Stedman’s feedback which has been noted. SD then talked through the ‘What we are building’ flowchart which was issued at the meeting for information purposes only, explaining the issue resolution process.
4.2 SD explained that it was crucial to continue to build on the work Brian Redford is driving forward i.e. for other areas of the Department to recognise the advantages of WT and that WT is a tremendous resource for them eg working through solutions with process owners.
5. New WT Pack
5.1 SD explained that the draft version of the WT pack had been compiled but all the interactions of the material has made it hard to share the full content but assured WTPG members that they would received the draft material by email by the end of February. He acknowledged that it would be crucial to have PG input into the pack. WTPG acknowledged the importance of rolling this out.
6. Professional body representation
6.1 SD facilitated a discussion around professional bodies representation at the events themselves and generally. The key points from this discussion were captured on flipchart and will feed into the WT pack material and the launch events.
7. WTSG function in the future
7.1 A discussion ensued around the responsibility of WTSG and It was accepted that WTSG can discuss anything but should be organised more strategically to deal with the big issues. It was also felt that WTSG should have a role in Quality Monitoring to ensure the WT system works and identify areas not working with a view to rectifying and conversely, identifying best practices and share these more widely.
7.2 WTPG highlighted that WTPG role in the new communications system should include a challenge process i.e. where reply from HMRC not considered satisfactory, WTPG will challenge response.
8. Other business
8.1 Telephone security
SD explained that the new Taxes security processes had now been rolled out and an article for the next edition of the WT publication was planned to include what agents can expect from their experience under the new security question regime. Contact Centre Directorate will be carrying out an evaluation with agents and are happy to share their feedback with us following the evaluation.
8.2 ESC A19
SD confirmed that John Kimmer’s paper had been read and the response shared with WTPG members and he acknowledged that HMRC could be explaining more clearly and openly the difficulties we have but he assured WTPG that the newly appointed HMRC business lead on ESCA19 is committed to working with us to overcome issues. SD pointed out that MPPC will go some length in avoiding delays in allowing under/overpayments to drag on and will impact on ESC A19. SD explained that the sub group were next meeting in March and he hoped to discuss the new proposals at the next WTSG meeting.
8.3 Paper return processing
SD explained that up to 9 January 2009 Customer Operations had prioritised working post on hand over return processing. The delay therefore in processing returns has meant that many customers have received a Payment Reminder (SA309C) as the UTR selection date for returns received but not processed was December. All Returns therefore received but not processed by the selection date will have received a payment reminder.
WTPG expressed their dissatisfaction highlighting that this type of oversight should not happen again. SD confirmed that he would be providing feedback to Customer Operations on the impacts and repercussions from the decision taken and highlighting that they need to be thinking of engaging WT in the future.
SD informed WTPG that Customer Operations were looking at the series of reminders with a view to implementing change and WTPG were invited to comment on the proposed change of wording to the SA309C (copy of proposed text given out at the meeting).
8.4 Forms P2
SD acknowledged that he was yet to give a response to Derek Allen’s letter written following the previous meeting. He said that he received the materials for a reply from the relevant colleagues but felt that it would be quicker and easier for him to meet Derek and talk through the answers than draft a reply. They could then agree a report for WTSG with a proposed response. DM offered to be present also and DA agreed.
8.5 Repayment security checks
SD referred to the various exchanges of email in respect of WTPG feedback where there had been (1) long delays in issuing repayments where they had been selected for a security check and (2) the wording on the Self Assessment Statement doesn’t say that the repayment has been selected for a security check and gives an issue date suggesting the repayment has already been sent. He explained the IT constraints in fixing this but confirmed that we could change the wording on the Self Assessment Statement. WTPG didn’t find this solution acceptable.
A discussion then ensued around WTPG experience of recent delays of repayments being issued as a direct result of being selected for security checks. SD explained that he would need examples of delays to take forward as actual evidence to the business specialists.
8.6 Issues for future WTSG agenda
SD asked WTPG to start thinking between now and next WTSG meeting about the big issues they wanted to take forward. Initial requests from WTPG were update on ADLs following discussion at WTSG in December; web based training - penalty regime - PG highlighted the need for joint training for new compliance checks, powers, etc.
WTPG also highlighted some online issues and SD explained that SA online Carter/esub group was now to become part as business as usual and he is in discussion with Carter team for handover arrangements. He explained that he is looking for an orderly handover and is flexible on timescale. WTPG advised that the Carter Agent Steering Group agreed to retain responsibility for online issues for the next three to six months to ensure the IT fixes are implemented at the April upgrade.
8.7 New logo
WTPG asked that Elizabeth Parks be provided with the new logo.
Action 3: SD to provide EP with new logo.
Date of next meeting is 29 April 2009.
