Minutes of Meeting of Working Together Steering Group
13 June 2007
HM Revenue & Customs, 100 Parliament Street
Chair: Roger Halson (HMRC)
Secretary/Minutes: Jacqueline Stewart (HMRC)
Name |
Organisation |
|---|---|
Dave Hartnett (DH) |
HMRC, ExCom |
Stephen Banyard (SB) |
HMRC |
Jo Wakeman (JW) |
HMRC |
Roger Halson (RH) |
HMRC |
Michelle Patel (MP) |
HMRC |
Colin Kirk (CK) |
HMRC |
Madeline McGrillen (MM) |
HMRC |
Tim Salt (TS) |
HMRC |
Jacqueline Stewart (JS) |
HMRC |
Alain Gray (AG) |
graycells |
Derek Allen (DA) |
ICAS |
Brian Palmer (BP) |
AAT |
Elizabeth Parks (EP) |
Independent Administrator |
Richard Shooter (RS) |
ICAEW |
Richard Mannion (RM) |
CIOT |
Jean Jesty (JJ) |
ATT |
Peter Jennings (PJ) |
ACCA |
1. Welcome and apologies
1.1 RH welcomed everyone to the meeting, particularly Dave Hartnett, Jean Jesty on behalf of ATT, Colin Kirk and Tim Salt to their first meeting of WT Steering Group and our guest speakers, Alain Gray, Michelle Patel and Jo Wakeman.
1.2 Apologies have been received from Bernadette Kenny, John Kimmer, Keith Lang and Theresa Middleton.
2. Minutes of previous meeting and matters arising
2.1 Minutes from the meeting on 5 March 2007 had been circulated and agreed. Updates were provided on the action points from the last meeting as follows:
2.2 Action: John Kimmer’s paper proposing expansion of WT to include CAR offices was not discussed in depth and it was agreed that Mary Hay be invited to attend the next meeting of WTSG to discuss. Update: Cleared - Tim Salt has met with Dave Shaw and Keith Moore in CAR to discuss the proposals set out in John Kimmer’s paper and they are committed to improving their relationship with agents and think WT offers a great opportunity to do this. Keith Moore has written to John Kimmer to set up a meeting to discuss further.
2.3 Action: WT team to provide Partners with copies of the output from the joint compliance workshop held on 27th February 2007. Update: Cleared – paper issued to EP to cascade to partners.
3. Carter SA Workshop pilots – Jo Wakeman
3.1 The Carter team have been delivering workshops and promote the use of online services for twelve months. It was recognised however that there was a need to step up activities with agents. Agents are used by 75% of businesses and are seen as key stakeholders by HMRC and an important customer group.
3.2 Working closely with agents and Working Together (WT), particularly the WT e subgroup and the Cobham WT group, a workshop was designed and developed. This covered plans implementation and benefits of online services. The joint activity worked well and pilot workshops were run in Cobham, Leeds, and Ipswich in advance of an ambitious plan to roll out two hundred workshops to commence later this year.
3.3 The workshops were well received:
- There was a 20% response rate to invitations sent out.
- 75% of these agents who responded attended the workshops.
- 50% of these agents who attended had previously filed online.
3.4 Evaluation was carried out at the events which showed:
95% felt workshop objectives had been achieved
95% rated the events as good or excellent
Lessons learned form the initial Cobham event resulted in changes to the Leeds and Ipswich events.
3.5 As a result of the evaluation carried out with partners and planned follow up with attendees by phone will see the workshop further refined and developed.
3.6 In addition a large amount of feedback was captured at the events and a commitment was made to provide a response to the audience in four weeks.
3.7 EP & JJ who had attended the Cobham and Leeds event respectively agreed that the events had gone well but it’s important to remember that one size doesn’t fit all and the workshops will need to be refined as they go on. Also noted that more support from the professions is needed e.g. to answer questions which means that more notice is needed. Also need to consider proficiency levels in discussion groups to ensure all users are catered for.
3.8 Similarly DA pointed out that the Scotland dates of 26/27 June fall in school holidays which will impact attendance.
3.9 JJ pointed out that choice of location is very important; Leeds showed that city centres with restricted parking are less popular than locations close to motorways.
3.10 RS stressed the need to consider the use of existing local Working Together contacts and asked if workshops would be repeated in a location if there was sufficient demand. JW confirmed this approach.
3.11 Roadshow Rollout
3.12 JW described the plans to rollout more roadshows events and confirmed that the scripting for this continues to be developed in conjunction with WT. SB suggested a joint group to plan events and agree locations. BP agreed this approach and said it is important to quickly identify people in rep bodies to work with Carter to help plan events in June to August. Also need to start planning early for e subgroup. JW agreed to PJs suggestion to put timetable on shared Workspace. RM said he thoroughly endorsed approach and congratulated the team on the Carter Programme timetable.
Action: Brian Palmer as the e-services sub group lead agreed to supply Jo Wakeman and her team with contact details of named individuals from each representative body to act as point of contact to help work with Carter team to organise road show events.
3.13 JW said that the team remains confident of its programme to deliver the design proposition between now and 2012. The confidence comes through increased investment, establishment of peak management team and greater experience of SA peaks. Agent concerns are understood but contingency plans continue to be developed alongside work on usability testing and data centres to migrate data during maintenance shut downs.
3.14 RH said this was encouraging and suggested that the e-subgroup continues to monitor and report back to this meeting as the project develops. BP said that this would be important for agents who would be looking for successful progress through key milestones to ensure programme remains on track.
4. Forum with Dave Hartnett
4.1 DH said that he was pleased to be able to spend time with the Steering Group. He’s been spending an increasing amount of time with agents recently, particularly through the ICAEW Roadshows that have been taking place around the country, and it’s extremely useful to be able to hear first hand from agents how it is for them, and to be able to provide feedback on their performance from an HMRC perspective.
4.2 RM said he was pleased that there is a two way process. The message that he hears from members is that with problems in post handling, VAT registration and 64-8 it starts to feel like HMRC are experiencing serious problems. There is also concern about plans to close Newry VAT registration office at a time when it’s most needed.
4.3 DH said he fully appreciated the concerns expressed about these issues. However for the first time he had seen qualified tax practitioners trying to break the system by turning MSCs into PSCs and a massive attempt to register companies, which are under the threshold, for VAT. All this at a time when HMRC is working to achieve stretching quality and clearance targets for post.
4.4 On VAT registration DH said that this is a major route into MTIC fraud and so have to have clear processes in place to deal with the risk – but he recognised the need to improve. This has started but it will take several months to turn this situation round. On 64-8 the situation is improving much more quickly.
4.5 DH said that he has asked Theresa Middleton and Stephen Banyard to draw up details of the 10 hot issues – which includes post, telephone contact, VAT registration, 64-8 etc – reported by customers as being unsatisfactory. He is seeking to understand how we are performing against targets and what our customers are saying about their experience in order to identify the most effective way of securing improvements. In addition work is taking place to improve the experience of agents when they contact HMRC and in the guidance we give them on how to access our services.
4.6 RM was interested in the guidance issue and asked how agents can get answers to more obscure questions. DH said that he had recently become aware of quality issues in relation to technical updates provided by the rep bodies which suggested the possible need for better collaboration between HMRC and agents. But RM’s question also pointed to the need to move to the approach used in the Manchester telephone pilot were agents were able to access more technical advice/answers to obscure questions and bypass the more straightforward contact centre route. That pilot is currently being evaluated and it’s unlikely that HMRC could roll out for at least a year. In the meantime we are developing a pilot for agent account managers to provide a signposting service, directing agents to the right person to deal with a specific issue and an induction pack for agents.
4.7 RS said that DH’s support for local WT is valued by the steering group but wanted to know how the group could work with DH to address any concerns that he may have about local WT. DH said that talking to so many agents recently had been a positive experience, providing a two way street for identifying and resolving problems on either side. Historically many local WT groups have worked in this way but his concerns lie in those groups where there is not that spirit of cooperation and working together. In such cases it can become a one way street where the HMRC organisers become deluged with enquiries and HMRC staff perceive a barrage of criticism as them not being valued. Agents need to work with HMRC to improve this situation and together HMRC/agents need to manage the expectations of local WT groups.
4.8 RM said that issues like Managed Service Companies (MSC) showed a contrast between the views of HMRC and agents. Agents saw the impact of the large number of new Personal Service Companies (PSC) being the result of the changes in law affecting MSC, whereas DH was taking the view that this was a deliberate attempt to break the system. Under the two way process if HMRC has concerns it should express them publicly. DH said that there had been a great deal of discussion with agents on this subject. Likewise with the recent “buy to let issue” – HMRC wished to be open with agents about future plans and the Press coverage had been unfortunate and damaging. PG stressed that the professional bodies at the meeting in question had specifically sought clearance that the topic could be publicised and that confirmation of this had been given. DH said that on occasions agents will want to go to the Press but when they do he hoped they would indeed do it in a responsible manner having discussed it with HMRC in advance. SB pointed to the many other occasions where agents have taken a very positive approach to sensitive issues which he and DH have appreciated. RS said that the WT members of the Steering Group have always taken their responsibilities and confidentiality seriously and this has been recognised as a key strength.
5. Agent Partnership Marketing – Michelle Patel
5.1 HMRC has conducted telephone and face-to-face research with agents and potential partners. The research has identified that while there is a recognition that HMRC is working towards becoming more helpful and approachable and that HMRC’s expertise is valued by industry bodies and the agents they represent, accessing this expertise is difficult. Specifically the website is perceived as hard to navigate with information appearing in many different places.
5.2 While partners and agents felt positive about the many recent consultations
they also felt these appeared uncoordinated and were critical that they received
little or no feedback following their input. They also want to ask HMRC questions;
although they may feel more comfortable doing this via trusted third parties,
such as their trade association, or by airing their views on agent blogs or
networks.
Finally communications from HMRC need to be more customer (agent) focused;
treating agents as professionals and understanding of their business pressures
through simple effective communications at the right time of year.
5.3 HMRC has been developing an approach to counter theses criticisms and emphasise the positives. The role for proposed partner support communications includes: tailored information and news via an agent update (e-newsletter) distributed to and by partners, Partner section on HMRC website including downloadable products, ‘How to’ brochure library / e-seminars, further help, e.g. agent calendar, podcasts and joint activity at partner conferences and training.
5.4 It’s proposed to start with the Agent Update. This will alert partners to recent HMRC news and direct them via weblinks to the appropriate pages on the HMRC internet. The Agent Update will be published every 2 months, starting in the early Autumn. It’s planned to distribute this to agents via the rep bodies themselves the aim being to reach 40% of the agent base represented by our selected partners (approx. 50,000 agents).
5.5 CaM has recruited a specialist agency, 23red, who will help pull together the communications material and share it. They will be contacting Steering Group partners in w/c 18th June to canvass further opinion about the proposal and to identify communications partners in the respective organisations to support this activity.
5.6 PJ said he was concerned that the paper version of the WT publication had been withdrawn for financial reasons but money is being spent on this research. In the meantime there had been delays in getting the online version of the publication out. RH said that the aim in moving to the online version of the publication had been to produce a more newsworthy product. There had been some delays but the next version is due to be published by the end of June and thereafter on a regular quarterly basis. The partnership marketing described by MP and the e-newsletter is intended to address the concerns raised by agents about communications and it’s intended that the WT publication will align with this.
5.7 RS said that the partnership marketing approach is a good start. RM said there is a role in mass media, including TV, for getting messages across and HMRC should rethink it’s approach e.g. using advertising campaigns for issues such as the Offshore Disclosure project and looking at an educational role using TV. MP said that she is currently discussing with senior managers enhancing publicity and is particularly looking at compliance issues.
5.8 RH said he hoped that the Steering Group would take the opportunity to provide active support and engagement in this initiative.
6. Subgroup Reports – Roger Halson
6.1 Contact subgroup - The sub-group report had been circulated in advance
of the meeting.
DH has commissioned a piece of work (already discussed at 4.5) around the
main areas of concern for agents in relation to contact with HMRC.
6.2 CK said details of the evaluation from the Manchester telephone pilot should be out in July.
6.3 CK said that he had been working closely with the processing team in
Longbenton to understand the issues around 64-8 and as a result invited the
partners to engage in future discussions and a visit to the processing team
in order to better understand the issues. JJ said she thought this was a positive
step and others agreed that it would be useful to visit. BP said that Jane
Moore would also be a good person to attend.
Action: Partners to feed back to Colin Kirk details of nominated
representatives interested in participating in a forum to debate 64-8 processing
issues and details of representatives interested in a visit to the CAAT processing
centre.
6.4 e services subgroup - BP said he welcomed the Carter engagement, consultation and listening. The roadshows were welcomed but he had concerns about resources and the need to deploy around the team. SB said he understood the concerns and was discussing with Mark Holden.
6.5 Compliance subgroup - RH requested that views on the revised terms of reference be emailed to him as soon as possible.
Action: Partners to email Roger their thoughts on the sub group proposals together with the Terms of Reference
7. WT update – Tim Salt
7.1 Under the new arrangements for Local Working Together, Local Compliance (LC) Targeted Enabling Education and Leverage (TEEL), with the support of colleagues from other business areas, are starting to take responsibility for the organisation and administration of meetings/groups. Since April, when the revitalisation started, TS has kept organisers and WT Steering Group partners informed about developments. He has also consulted with the Steering Group on an ongoing basis and worked closely with them to ensure that they are content with the arrangements being put in place.
7.2 LC is split into 5 Groups, each one managed by a Grade 7 officer. TS has just announced allocations within his WT team to correspond with the LC Groups to provide direct support and issues resolution, both to the Grade 7 contact point and to the TEEL people located around the group who will be responsible for organising meetings in their own areas.
7.3 The TEEL managers have been given details of the Local WT groups in their areas and asked to produce an action plan by 15th June to identify details of any problem locations (and potential solutions/alternatives), details of how they are organising the local WT project in their area, an update on progress in contacting current organisers to organise handover or support of groups that are still operational and a joint strategy with BCU contacts to decide a strategy for revitalising groups that have ceased meeting. There is already a good working relationship between WT and TEEL who see this as an important piece of work and are fully engaged in it.
Local WT meetings are taking place around the country, the team is looking at improved communications as a link to issues resolution (and improvements have already been made to both the internet and intranet pages) and working closely with MP and partnership marketing. WT is also working closely with the Carter team to develop synergies between local WT and the online services roadshows.
8. Shared Workspace – Alain Gray
8.1 AG provided a briefing and overview on how shared workspace works and
the benefits that can be derived from it’s full use. However, although
the Steering Group members already have access to the WT shared workspace,
it’s not currently being used to a great extent.
8.2 JJ said that she frequently goes into the shared workspace and BP said
the e services subgroup has been using it for some time. It was thought that
the combination of some technical problems around access, lack of understanding
about the benefits, and a need for further training may be putting people
off.
8.3 PJ said that he fully supports the use of shared workspace and was keen to use as much as possible. He thought that AG’s presentation and work that had recently been carried out on the usability offered an opportunity to look at this again and encourage wider use in the group.
8.4 AG said that he would be around to provide some one to one assistance in accessing shared workspace after this meeting and MM said that she and other members of the WT team could be on hand at the end of a phone to help partners access shared workspace when they use in the future.
8.5 TS said it was important that partners were using shared workspace as it is planned to locate a register of issues from local WT groups here to show actions, progress and resolutions which will provide partners with a clear understanding of what’s happening at a local level.
9. Any Other Business
9.1 SB said that this was the last meeting that RH would attend before his retirement at the end of June. He said that he was very appreciative of the extensive work that RH has done over the years to support business and agents and the development of the Customer Unit. He offered his sincere thanks and best wishes for the future. This was echoed by the partners who thought the progress we are making in Working Together is due in no small part to the contribution from RH.
Summary of action points
3. Carter SA Workshop Pilots
Action: Brian Palmer as e-services sub group lead agreed to supply Jo Wakeman and her team with contact details of named individuals from each representative body to act as point of contact to help work with Carter team to organise road show events.
6. Sub Group Reports
6.1 Contact sub group: 64-8:
Action: Partner to feed back to Colin Kirk details of nominated representatives interested in participating in a forum to debate 64-8 processing issues and details of representatives interested in a visit to the CAAT processing centre.
6.2 Compliance sub group:
Action: Partners to email Roger their thoughts on the sub group proposals together with the Terms of Reference
