Minutes of meeting of Working Together Steering Group (WTSG)

5 December 2007

HM Revenue & Customs, 100 Parliament Street

Chair: Stephen Banyard (8.30-10.00)
Simon Woodside (11.00-1.00)
Secretary/ Minutes: Jacqueline Stewart (HMRC)

Attendees

Name	Organisation
Dave Hartnett (DH) – From 12.30	HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC)
Melanie Dawes (MD)- From 12.30	HMRC
Bernadette Kenny (BK)- From 8.30-9.30	HMRC
Stephen Banyard (SB)	HMRC
Simon Woodside (SW)	HMRC
Simon Smith (SS)	HMRC
Colin Kirk (CK)	HMRC
Tim Salt (TS)	HMRC
Linda Maslen (LM)	HMRC
Chris McCarthy (CM) – From 11.00a.m.	HMRC
Ruth Bulteel (RB) – From 11.00 a.m.	HMRC
Jon Sherman (JS) – From 11.00a.m.	HMRC
Madeline McGrillen (MM) – From 11.00a.m.	HMRC
Abe Amoah (AA) – From 11.00a.m.	HMRC
Jacqueline Stewart (JMS)	HMRC
Derek Allen (DA)	Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland (ICAS)
Peter Jennings (PJ)	Association of Chartered Certified Accountants (ACCA)
Jean Jesty (JJ)	Association of Taxation Technicians (ATT)
John Kimmer (JK)	ATT
Richard Mannion (RM)	Chartered Institute of Taxation (CIOT)
Brian Palmer (BP)	Association of Accounting Technicians (AAT)
Elizabeth Parks (EP)	Independent Administrator
Richard Shooter (RS)	Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales (ICAEW)

8.30-10.00a.m. meeting:

1. Welcome

SB welcomed everyone to the meeting and thanked partners for changing their timetables to accommodate this earlier meeting. There was a round the table introduction.

2. Data Loss

2.1 BK addressed the recent data loss issue acknowledging that this was a serious matter which was regretted. A huge effort has been made by HMRC to address this situation and we now have to draw a line under this, understand what has happened, and learn from the incident. BK advised that the police investigation was continuing and internal reviews were being undertaken.

2.2 BK advised that Paul Gray took personal responsibility for the data loss and took the decision to stand down as Chairman. Dave Hartnett is now acting Chairman. Nick Lodge has stepped out of his current role in Customer Contact until further notice to work on data security.

2.3 BK advised that Dave Hartnett has identified with Gus O’Donnell the priority areas to be addressed – data issues, rebuilding confidence and the organisation’s reputation with customers, rebuilding HMRC’s relationship with agents and ongoing transformation changes building upon a solid foundation.

2.4 SB acknowledged that the security issues could cause customers to be concerned about the security of online filing. RM made the point that those agents who already file online are already sold on it but that the recent data loss incident may further discourage those with an irrational fear about online filing. RM said that an article was required to reassure agents that filing by internet is reliable. SB suggested that Helen Hardy could provide information to reassure agents about the security of online filing.

2.5 RS expressed concern that there was an apparent embargo on post being sent out by HMRC. BK confirmed that as a consequence of the breach of security, all senior managers were required to review their data processes. We are looking at our processes to identify practises that may need to change but BK stressed It is very much business as usual and normal service to customers.

Action point 1: Partners to let BK (via TS) have any examples where the HMRC reaction to the data loss was causing them problems.

2.6 RM advised that he felt the loss of confidence and reputation of HMRC goes back to the merger of Revenue and Customs and felt we didn’t merge with customers and agents in mind. There was a real lack of reference points and RM highlighted that HMRC need to find ways that agents can speak to someone and stop problems before they escalate.

3 Operations – improved service for agents

BK highlighted three main themes:

• improved dialogue and engagement with agents at local and national level, ensuring senior management buy-in
• addressing current operational issues, VAT, processing, Contact Centres and improving dialogue so that problems can be resolved quickly
• improved access and better services for agents

BK advised that the data loss was not the catalyst for wanting to work more effectively with agents and acknowledged the feedback collected via a number of channels including Working Together (WT) and ICAEW and CIOT Road Shows which had highlighted issues and the need to build on the existing relationship and improve services to agents. She asked SS and LM to highlight some areas they are working on.

SS acknowledged the delays in dealing with post that had occurred in some offices over the last year and explained post recovery plans are in place and on track and performance is improving. He acknowledged the difficulty agents may have experienced in tracking post, moving blockages and solving problems and is looking at a range of options including a workshop with customers and staff to better understand the problems and identify solutions. Active consideration is also being given to the development of a Customer Relationship Manager (CRM) role in processing offices.

LM provided a summary of the work carried out to identify how HMRC can improve the service provided to agents through its contact centres, referring to the two pilots which they have already run. She discussed the introduction of a proposed new call centre service for agents. She explained that Customer Contact wanted to move away from pilot designs and were proposing a roll-out programme starting initially with two sites, East Kilbride and Bradford on 21 December. Calls to the new agent lines will be routed to an adviser with at least 12 months experience (70-80 per cent of enquiries should be dealt with by these advisers). Where the adviser cannot complete the call they will conduct a warm hand off to the technician. If the technician cannot complete the call they will conduct a warm hand off to a taxes technically trained Higher Officer in their contact centre. In summary, HMRC will do the running around, not the agent.

Partners welcomed proposal but expressed disappointment that it had taken so long and stressed the need to get this going very quickly. They also requested to feed into the implementation. LM suggested reconvening the Contact sub group to oversee implementation. RM highlighted that Call Centres were a major irritant for agents and work to rebuilt agents’ trust in contact centres was a necessity.

JK highlighted that getting post down was very important but HMRC should not lose sight of the need for quality working. SS advised that quality working has not suffered in last six months and in fact has improved with increased accuracy in SA in particular.

SB explained that the Agent Account Manager (AAM) pilots in Ipswich and Edinburgh were underway and that a range of options are being looked at. SB said that we may extend AAM role, or look to appoint one person in each processing location.

To summarise SB explained that service levels were up, processing of VAT registrations were back on track, telephone improvements were in place in two locations before Christmas, the AAM pilot is well underway, there is increasing operational involvement in local WT meetings, and we are processing 64-8’s quickly but acknowledged that we need to redesign process with agents.

Prior to departing the meeting, BK expressed her commitment to work with agents to deliver improvements.

11.00a.m.-1.00p.m. meeting

1 Welcome introduction & apologies

SW informed partners that he has taken responsibility for chairing WTSG following Theresa Middleton’s move from the Business Customer Unit to Customer Contact.

2 Open forum

SB explained that following the morning session, he had met with Programme Directors from the directorates agents have most dealings with. He explained that they recognise the need for them to join up in order to ensure that they and their staff can provide the best service to customers. He explained that the Programme Directors have agreed to meet every quarter to discuss what is working and what’s not. He explained that there is a big impetus from Dave Hartnett and at ministerial level on working effectively with agents.

RM raised the question of the fit of the Compliance Risk Forum (CRF) and the compliance sub group highlighting that the latter has done some good work on breaking down barriers between HMRC and agents. He feels it should be retained as it is a good forum in providing information on operational matters. SB explained that we are currently working to understand where this fits with other forums and consider the structure of agent meetings and who attends, ensuring we don’t have more groups than required.

PJ highlighted that he could not access consultation documents on Shared Workspace.

Action point 2: Partners to let MM have details of any access problems so that she can resolve them.

SB invited partners’ reflections on the proposals discussed at the earlier meeting.

DA felt the way forward was positive and constructive but HMRC’s real challenge was to regain agent’s trust in Contact Centres as many had become disenchanted with telephone contact over the years. He also highlighted the need to be more transparent about what we are committed to deliver and how we communicate this.

BP suggested that Customer Contact tailor the security questions for agents when they telephone the contact centres. LM confirmed that the call script will be adapted with agents in mind as the adviser will know it is an agent calling.

CK provided partners with an update on the AAM pilot launched on 3 September in Ipswich and Edinburgh. The pilot is progressing well with increased agent take up in both sites. The AAMs are visiting agents offices to promote the pilot and the evaluation is ongoing.

RM referred to the Partner’s visit to the Portsmouth office and expressed concern that it would appear that they do not prioritise repayments. He referred to an article in the WT publication which stated that the department would prioritise repayments. SS acknowledged that it makes sense to prioritise repayments, as it will only create more post if not actioned early.

Action point 3: SS to review policy on repayment prioritisation and report back to WTSG.

JK wanted to know why returns were not processed in the responsible office and cited a case where the return he had submitted was transferred from one office to another and the return not processed.

Action Point 4: JK to provide SS with details of individual case to investigate further.

RM raised the point that some agents perceive online filing as not being secure especially as some civil servants do not file online. SB explained that there were three types of secure customer: DSS, C&E & IR and the only people we do not put through online are those at material risk. He assured partners of the security measures which ensure that the systems can’t be hacked into. SB suggested that this point could usefully be addressed in RM’s proposed article for Taxation.

3: Communications

3.1 WT Publication: Paper Format

Feedback partners had received from agents was that the WT publication in paper format was useful and was disappointed when this had been withdrawn.

TS explained that the paper format had been withdrawn and an e only version produced as a result of production costs – £60k per annum plus staff time and resource. He explained that the WT team have been developing their communications to agents through a number of channels including the publication but resources were limited and had been prioritised on the revitalisation of local WT.

RM felt that HMRC needed to be proactive in getting the publication to organisations rather than them trying to find it and suggested that a database of contacts be built to enable notifications to be sent. TS confirmed that the representative bodies are notified prior to issuing the publication and that work was underway to improve the RSS (Really Simple Syndication) feed.

PJ suggested that the technical type articles previously published via Tax Bulletin should be considered for inclusion in the WT publication. TS explained that whilst there is a place for technical articles which do appear in the publication, the Agent Update also features technical material.

3.2 Agent Update

MM had circulated a paper prior to WTSG and gave brief summary – the second edition of Agent Update was published on 8 November and MM was currently drawing together information on the third edition which is due to published on 20 December. She acknowledged that January is a busy month for agents so the fourth edition would be published in February and the Agent Update would revert to bi-monthly editions thereafter.

MM highlighted that a calendar of HMRC events for agents was published in September. This has been updated and now features Online Services Workshops, new Money Laundering Regulations (MLR) Trade Seminars, Business Advice Open Days and Employer Talk seminars. The new Events Calendar was issued to agent partners and published on the HMRC website in November.

3. 3 Communications Strategy

Prior to the Steering Group meeting, DA had suggested that we include communications on the agenda, looking at how we can do it better. DA acknowledged that HMRC are developing new lines of electronic communication but his concern is that we are only reaching those customers who are already receptive, what about those who are not electronic literate

Action point 5: CK to take forward with Derek Allen as this is more of a strategic issue than operational one.

4: Minutes of Previous Meeting & Matters Arising

Minutes of the previous meeting were agreed.

4.1 Action points:

Action point 1: Charities, Assets and Residence (CAR) WT Meetings: CK explained that due to internal difficulties this had taken longer to clear than intended for which apologies were given. CK had spoken with JK in the margins of the meeting and an early meeting, after 31January, would be arranged. Cleared

Action point 2: Processing more than one return at the same time, it is thought that if the returns are not processed in the correct order this can result in an overpayment appearing on the Statement of Account. There are no gaps in our guidance so this should not happen. Partners therefore invited to provide TS with examples where this has happened and he will take forward with Processing Directors Office. Cleared.

Action point 3: BP to report back e sub group discussion on proving reasonable excuse at run up to January deadline: BP confirmed that this had been raised at last e sub group meeting but he would pick up again at 11 December e sub group meeting.

Action point 6: BP to circulate response to Partners

Action point 4: Partners to provide feedback on WT Internet pages. Feedback not yet received – EP to investigate. Open.

Action point 5: Stagger Dates: Response circulated and partners have agreed this as cleared.

Action point 6: Agents to be kept up to date with current position on service issues: Cleared – message posted on WT What’s New page on 8 October 2007.

Action point 7: Manchester Telephone Pilot – Cleared – cleared by previous discussion.

Action point: 8 Promised Call-Backs from Contact Centres: Cleared by previous discussion.

5 Tax Simplification & Admin Burdens

JS gave a high level overview of the work being done to reduce admin burdens and the PBR simplification package.

He referred to the high profile announcement on the 23 measures for priority action. The package included lots of work already being done to reduce admin burdens and stressed that this was more than a numerical target and we have to see real improvements.

RM raised concerns that savings in time will be lost by new rules on income shifting which will be laborious and difficult. JS confirmed that there will be a consultation around this and acknowledged that it was important that agent views be fed into this. RS suggested that this could happen at a local WT level.

Action point 7: JS to discuss with TS briefing notes for local WT groups.

6: HMRC Website

Ruth Bulteel and Chris McCarthy gave an overview of the web convergence project.

The main issue for customers is not being able to find what they are looking for and the content being written at a high level and in a user unfriendly way eg without information on a specific theme being grouped together such as 'Starting a Business'.

There is ministerial commitment that by 2011, almost all citizen and business e-services migrate to Directgov and Businesslink.gov and all e-transactions are provided through these primary websites. This means that all departments will have one corporate website, utilising shared infrastructure and all other sites will be closed. As 'owner' of Businesslink, HMRC has an increased role in ensuring it delivers web convergence.

By 2011, all of HMRC’s customer facing material will appear only on Directgov and Businesslink and the main HMRC site will close down. The only things left on our corporate site will be a library of technical guidance and other material about the department or published under open government requirements such as statistics and consultation documents.

Over the next three years HMRC will need to rewrite, or at least review, what is on the site in a more straightforward, customer friendly style. Style will be the same throughout our site and compatible with the look and feel of Directgov and Businesslink. So we will have a coherent, integrated body of material, designed as a whole, based around customer needs, developed based on customer research and tested with users and created by professional writers. Key areas for rewrite in 2007-08 include the Construction Industry Scheme, PAYE for Employers and Tax Credits.

There are no plans to formally consult with rep bodies, but are happy to inform them of developments where appropriate and to receive any feedback.

7: Sub Group Update

The sub group reports had been submitted in advance of the meeting – partners were invited to ask questions to clarify any of the information.

Partners asked about the restructure of Large and Distributed Processing offices as the result of recently announced reorganisation. SS confirmed that processing offices are now organised as strategic and non-strategic offices. By 2011 the network will be reduced to 34 strategic sites.

Action Point 8: TS to review the new structure to ensure that local WT network reflects the restructuring.

8: Forum with Dave Hartnett

DH opened the forum expressing his thanks to partners for being here and supporting HMRC through some recent difficult events.

DH explained that HMRC are working hard to rebuild confidence and are taking steps to strengthen protection of data in the Department. He stressed that a main priority was to look at how we improve the service we deliver on the front line and improve the confidence of customers and services to agent. A plan will be produced which will set out how this will be achieved and against which HMRC will be accountable. There are no mountains of unopened post, we are processing more than 50k items per week but if partners have any examples of exceptional delays or problems these should be flagged to DH via TS.

RM said that partners were here as they have an over-riding desire to work with HMRC to improve services. He referred to the earlier point he had made that he felt most of the problems agents have today stem from the merger of Revenue and Customs and the fact that HMRC has merged and reorganised while making staff cuts - this impacted on the service provided to customers. DH confirmed that the Pacesetter Programme was producing productivity gain alongside an increasingly effective administration.

RS referred to an ICAEW roadshow where DH had reportedly said 'Agents should treat HMRC staff more kindly'. DH had no recollection of saying this but stressed that we need respectful relationships on both sides. This doesn’t mean sending courtesy 'thank you' letters – which are a waste of resource on both sides – but building a broader cultural change eg tone of engagement and approach and provision of better more focused services.

DH acknowledged that this would be the last steering group meeting that JK would be attending and thanked him on behalf of HMRC for his superb contribution, energy and engagement over the years and wished him well for the future. JK felt that in his eight years in WT he believed we’ve made a big difference and it has been a period of great reward.

SW closed the meeting after advising that the date of the next meeting is Wednesday 5 March.

Summary of action points

Action point 1: Post delays: Partners to let BK (via TS) have any examples where the HMRC reaction to the data loss was causing them problems.

Action point 2: Shared Workspace: Partners to let MM have details of any access problems so that she can resolve them.

Action point 3: Prioritising repayments: SS to review policy on repayment prioritisation and report back to WTSG.

Action point 4: Processing: JK to provide SS with details of case where client’s return was passed from one office to another and return not processed.

Action point 5: Communications strategy: Engaging customers who are not electronic literate – CK to take forward with Derek Allen as this is more of a strategic issue than operational one.

Action point 6: Reasonable excuse: BP to circulate response following 11 December e sub group meeting.

Action point 7: Tax simplification & admin burdens: Consultation with agents to be arranged and JS to discuss with TS briefing notes for local WT groups.

+ Open point from September 2007 minutes: AP4 – Feedback not yet received on WT Internet pages and EP to investigate