Minutes of Meeting of Working Together Steering Group

5 September 2007

HM Revenue & Customs, 100 Parliament Street

Chair: Theresa Middleton (HMRC)
Secretary/ Minutes: Tim Salt (HMRC)

Attendees

Name

Organisation

Theresa Middleton (TM)

HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC)

Stephen Banyard (SB)

HMRC

Caroline Addison (CA)

HMRC

Jane Gilchrist (JG)

HMRC

Geoff Lloyd (GL)

HMRC

Nick Lodge (NL) – from item 8

HMRC

Colin Kirk (CK)

HMRC

Madeline McGrillen (MM)

HMRC

Tim Salt (TS)

HMRC

Abe Amoah (AA)

HMRC

Derek Allen (DA)

ICAS

John Kimmer (JK)

ATT

Brian Palmer (BP)

AAT

Richard Shooter (RS)

ICAEW

Elizabeth Parks (EP)

WTSG

1. Welcome and apologies

1.1 TM welcomed everyone to the meeting thanked them for attending.

1.2 Apologies were received from Richard Mannion and Dave Hartnett.

2. Minutes of previous meeting and matters arising

2.1 JK attended a meeting with Charities, Assets and Residence (CAR) at the end of June with a view to setting up an inaugural meeting, however he has not heard anything regarding the date of their next meeting. In addition JK has not heard anything about the date of the next Large Processing Office (LPO) forum meeting.

Action point 1: TS to obtain dates for both meetings.

2.2 JK had a number of queries relating to the minutes of the February 2007 meeting:

2.3 Hand Delivered Tax Returns – TM’s understanding was that all penalties raised in error had been discharged. Feedback from agents was that the problem wasn’t widespread. RS accepted this but thought that an apology letter should be automatic. SB said that he doubted an individual letter could be issued as the HMRC infrastructure wouldn’t be able to facilitate this, but said that one answer would be to file online.

2.4 Filing more than one return – JK said that a problem arises when more than one return is filed at the same time which can result in an overpayment appearing on the statement of account. He thinks this happens when returns are not processed in the correct order ie earlier years first.

Action point 2: TS to investigate with Ann Smith and report back.

2.5 Online Filing agents’ system failure - how do agent’s prove that they have had a system failure especially during the run up to 31 January deadline? BP said that this was dealt with through the e-subgroup.

Action point 3: Issue to be dealt with by the e–subgroup and BP to report back.

3. 64-8 processing – Colin Kirk

3.1 CK said that the arrangements for some of the WTSG to visit Centralised Agent Authorisation Team (CAAT) on 14 September are well advanced. The plan is to meet at 9 am for an introduction by senior managers followed by a tour of the teams processing 64-8 and other forms CAAT are responsible for. There will also be the opportunity to visit a contact centre and listen into some live calls. Later in the day the agent reps will engage in a workshop to consider 64-8 processing to:

  • expose the difficulties in the current process from both sides
  • understand what we can do together to improve the process
  • build a constructive working relationship with CAAT

3.2 The current situation is that CAAT are in the process of clearing the backlog of around 44,000 64-8 and have moved in and trained an additional 88 staff to tackle the problem. The backlog came in part from extra, unexpected work generated by repayment bureaux registering and then deregistering 30,000 authorisations.

3.3 BP said it will be interesting to understand the practicalities involved in the process. He is keen to be involved in longer-term work to redesign the process but WTSG would expect to see real outcomes from any work that is done.

3.4 TM said she hoped the visit would be a starting point in understanding what each side can do to improve the current situation and welcomed any involvement of agents in helping to improve the process. It’s also important for HMRC to understand the issue with the work generated by the repayment bureaux including any possible compliance issues.

4. Agent partnership update – Madeline McGrillen

4.1 MM provided a summary of work that has taken place:

  • the first edition of the Agent Update is due to be published on Thursday 6 September
  • it is to be published bi-monthly
  • copies have been sent to the main rep bodies for agents prior to issue on 6 September
  • the Agent Update will be housed on the Practitioner Zone
  • in addition we have been working on an Events Calendar and How to Guides (work Suzanne West has been doing) which will also be housed on the Practitioner Zone
  • we are aiming to have a “'anding' place for all things tax agent and have started to build a separate Tax Agents and Advisers section within the Practitioner Zone.

4.2 MM stressed that this is work in progress and emphasised that we will be working with WTSG and others to improve communications – HMRC are not presenting the finished article. Feedback is encouraged so that we can continuously improve the work and there is a facility for this within the agent update.

Action point 4: Partners to provide feedback via EP on the Working Together (WT) Internet pages by 14 September. Feedback for the Agent’s Update and improvements to the Professional Zone will be ongoing.

5. Working Together update – Tim Salt

5.1 TS provided an update on revitalising local WT:

  • We now have a complete overview of activity and locations, contacts in place for every group, actual meeting dates in place for 24 groups, with a further 38 groups aiming for, and contacting agents to arrange, a meeting over the next 3 months. In the remaining groups organisers are looking at the viability of groups and considering factors such as previous buy-in, whether dormant indirect tax groups should be merged with direct tax groups, format of meetings (large scale with many attendees/more traditional WT format) and locations.
  • Communicated progress through the WT Internet pages and the WT publication.
  • Started to look at how best to publicise local groups on the HMRC website with a plan to have something in place by the end of September.
  • The WT team have been working closely with organisers to put these arrangements in place, deal with issues arising from meetings, accepted a number of invitations to go out and speak at local WT groups and provided comprehensive briefing to support local group organisers in their meetings.
  • The Professional Group meeting on 15 August asked for the local WT sub-group to be reinstated to consider issues going forward including getting agent buy-in, communications and HMRC senior manager support. An initial meeting to scope this has been arranged for 5 September, following the WTSG meeting.
  • As activity starts to gather pace issues about local WT arrangements will emerge. TS is working closely with managers in Local Compliance, and through his team, local organisers, to ensure issues like these are resolved as quickly and effectively as possible. In other cases TS will need WTSG guidance and support to bring the issues to resolution.

5.2 RS paid tribute to the huge amount of work Tim Salt has put into revitalising local WT. The challenge now is to see this translated into activity in local groups.

5.3 BP stated that we are a lot further forward than we had been in the past and appear to be doing all the right things. However meetings should not be a 'talking shop' - their purpose should be to discuss issues and there should be a register of issues. TS explained that there is currently a register of issues in WT shared workspace, which the WTSG has access to. He is currently looking at a variety of channels for publicising the outcome of issues raised eg Agent Update, publication and the WT Internet pages.

5.4 TS said the local WT sub group meeting later today would be considering the points raised here.

6. Subgroups

6.1 Reports from each of the sub groups had been circulated prior to the meeting.

Customer Contact – Derek Allen

6.2 DA said that difficulty contacting HMRC can create problems for professional firms, which in turn can have a cultural consequence – creating hostility and affecting compliance. We need to understand how to reduce sterile contact – need to look at ways to avoid the need for contact. DA said this group needs to see more activity taking place in the group to improve the situation and said he thought it’s not getting there at the moment.

6.3 CK said that although the Customer Contact sub group report indicated no activity this wasn’t strictly true as the Agent Account Manager pilot starts next week, which is responding to contact issues raised by agents. MM pointed out that the Agent Team is producing a 'how to guide' to be published on the Practitioner Zone, which should reduce the need for some telephone contact and help ensure success at first point of contact easier when agents do have to call.

6.4 TM said that we need to deal with contact issues by reducing the need for contact in the first place, designing out the need for contact and being clear on strategic solutions in the future.
6.5 JK expressed frustration because it is not possible to speak to the person who is dealing with a problem or the author of correspondence sent to the agent. He doesn’t phone HMRC unless it’s essential but like many agents finds that when he does call he doesn’t get the service that he needs. Also if the operator is unable to provide the required answer or information the call back he is promised doesn’t materialise. As he is often calling to pursue progress on correspondence for which he hasn’t had a reply it’s especially frustrating.

6.6 SB asked JK to produce examples where this has occurred and he will investigate further.

6.7 Other issues raised by the WTSG included frustration about times when agents can’t get through due to volume of traffic and unhelpful messages at peak times. JK said that when waiting in a queue it would be helpful to be given an indication of how long they are likely to have to wait.

6.8 TM said that we have conflicting data about agents’ experiences trying to contact us. Customer satisfaction surveys indicate a high level of satisfaction but the views expressed by agents here and elsewhere are at odds with this. If we can obtain details of specific concern we will ask Nick Lodge to investigate.

Online Services – Brian Palmer

6.9 BP confirmed that the online services sub group report is now final. The group had planned to meet on 4 September but he took the decision to cancel as both Mark Holden and Helen Smith were unable to attend – he was unhappy about the late notice of this. Whilst the e-subgroup is about more than Carter he considers it to be an important element which required senior manager attendance. The group are now working on revised dates.

6.10 BP asked whether there are statistics/information about how many customers cannot file online because of glitches in the system. SB said he was unsure but thought the issue is about early identification and resolution of recurring issues rather than the one-offs. BP said it would be worthwhile to get someone from Online Services at a future sub group meeting to address this together with concerns raised by RS about the difficulty in making complaints about online services.

6.11 BP also raised ongoing issues about Trusts and Estates problems.

Compliance – Derek Allen

6.12 DA said he had nothing to report except that Pete Robson had chaired the first meeting of the newly re-established group. Seemed to be moving in the right direction and evolving.

7. Service issues

VAT Registration – Geoff Lloyd

7.1 GL acknowledged that the turnaround times for processing VAT registrations were too long and said that he shared the concerns of customers. The issue was seen to be of great importance and progress was being closely tracked by the Joint VAT Consultative Committee (JVCC), Paul Gray and Ministers.

7.2 The delays in processing VAT registration applications had been caused by a number of factors including; stringent checks intended to counter VAT fraud, process and IT problems and an unexpected increase in numbers of applications received.

7.3 An action plan is in place to address this including:

  • Bringing in and training an additional 100 staff.
  • Refining the profile of risk checks. VAT registration is an entry point for Missing Trader Intra Community (MTIC) fraud costing £2-3 billion. Some 7,000 cases have been weeded out and refused registration as a result of the risk process. However as part of the recovery plan risk checks have been reassessed to ensure that the extra checks are correctly profiled.
  • Reducing the number of incomplete or incorrect registration applications. Failures in this category have been reduced to 20 per cent but there is still more to do.
  • Fast-tracking cases – for example using the Customer Relationship Manager in the Large Business Service to identify and approve known legitimate businesses. Also exploring opportunities to fast-track other low risk cases where the business has already been part of a review process and found to be legitimate.
  • Process improvements have helped to increase productivity rates eg the LEAN process in Wolverhampton has improved daily productivity from 7 to 9 cases per person.

7.4 The target aimed for is to achieve 70 per cent of cases registered in 14 calendar days by the end of January 2008. BP asked how the 70 per cent figure equates to the total number of applications received. GL said that 285,000 applications are received each year. The target is to process 100 per cent of the 70 per cent that are able to be processed within 14 days ie those applications that don’t require further checks and have been fully and accurately completed. Targets also exist for the cases falling in the other 30 per cent.

7.5 RS said that he was only aware that Paul Gray had written to members of the JVCC about plans to tackle the backlog because an ATT rep on the JVCC had told him this. Due to the importance of the issue RS though the letter should also have been sent to the rep bodies and WTSG . GL agreed that this issue needs to be directed at all appropriate stakeholder groups.

7.6 RS was interested in the high failure rate caused by inaccurate/incomplete forms and suggested that it would be useful if the top ten errors could be published more widely as a way of improving performance. GL said that a working group, established through JVCC, has been set up to discuss common errors and develop an action plan.

7.7 RS asked what initial checks were made on VAT registrations to ensure that applications with obvious errors could be spotted and returned quickly. GL said that all post is opened on day of receipt and given an initial vetting.

7.8 JK said he was aware that the hours of opening for the telephone helpline at the Annual Accounting Office had recently been reduced and this had caused customer difficulty. GL apologised for the difficulties and any inconvenience this caused and said that it was a difficult balance between directing the maximum resources to process applications and providing the helpline service. He agreed however to look into this.

7.9 BP suggested that if the online application forms were to ask about the client 'stagger dates' it would save the wrong quarters being set up which then results in agents having to contact HMRC again to request changes.

Action point 5: TS to make enquiries about suggestion to incorporate questions about 'stagger dates' into the online application.

Post – Caroline Addison/Jane Gilchrist

7.10 CA said that she would concentrate on the area she has responsibility for – SA/PAYE.

7.11 CA said she accepted and shared agents concerns that performance on post had been variable and this had been caused by a number of factors. SA/PAYE Processing is a big directorate and has gone through a number of extensive changes in locations, processes and staff. This had impacted on turnaround times for post but signs of recovery were starting to emerge as a result of action taken. This action included making changes to processes, taking on and training additional staff and overtime working. Longer term the next phase of Modernising Pay As You Earn Processes for Customers (MPPC) to be rolled out next year will improve HMRC’s ability to move work around the country, therefore balancing work on hand with resources. Work is also taking place to understand how to reduce sterile, non-value contact.

7.12 RS said he was concerned that we are in this position at a time when HMRC is still reducing numbers of staff and said that if the position continued in this way it may be necessary for rep bodies to go public on concerns. JK said that he was concerned that the new structure takes away personal responsibility from HMRC staff leading to a loss of job satisfaction with an impact on quality and post handling.

7.13 TM explained that it was necessary to change our processes and deliver staff reductions in order to deliver the spending targets set by Ministers. It is an improving picture but it will take time to get there. As the new processes and structures become established there will be uplift in quality and post turnaround.

7.14 BP asked if HMRC could be more open about problems and customer expectations. TM said that we will provide agents with an update of relevant information in a month’s time. Also Simon Smith, Director of SA/PAYE would be invited to the next meeting of the Steering Group.

Action point 6: TS to ensure that agents are updated on the current situation regarding service concerns in early October

8. Telephone pilot update and telephone contact issues – Caroline Addison/Jane Gilchrist/Nick Lodge

8.1 JG gave the background to the Manchester telephone pilot which had run from 1 December 2006 to 30 April 2007. The pilot was run in response to agent feedback about HMRC contact services and the overall aim was to identify how we might maximise 'Success at First Point of Contact' for agents who use our contact centre network. Two new options for agent contact were piloted alongside the ‘status quo’.

8.2 The feedback from the pilot was disappointingly low. Additional work to listen to calls was carried out to supplement the feedback. Technical difficulties in getting this information from the telephone provider resulted in delays to the evaluation. The volume of data is still too low for any firm conclusions to be drawn about the relative success of each pilot. Future detailed evaluation is now planned to identify a way forward with stakeholders across HMRC. An immediate plan is to arrange an early meeting with DA to share the data and seek his views on the way forward. It is hoped that a draft report will be produced and shared with this group by the end of November.

Action point 7: JG to arrange an early meeting with DA to discuss emerging findings and conclusions from the Manchester telephone pilot.

8.3 On telephone service generally JK said he spoke for the WTSG when he voiced concerns about the failure of HMRC to provide call backs when these are promised by Contact Centre operators. He gave some examples where this had arisen which he said were particularly irritating as he was chasing progress on correspondence caught up in the post delays. Others agreed that this was typical of their experience (see also paragraph 6.5)

8.4 NL said that independent customer satisfaction surveys show a high level of satisfaction with the telephone service. However he was concerned by the experiences reported here and said he would look into specific examples to see if these indicative of a greater underlying systemic problem

Action point 8: NL asked that partners send concrete examples of instances where promised call backs haven’t materialised to TS and NL will investigate further.

9. Any Other Business

9.1 After making reference to earlier comments made at the WTSG by HMRC, that the representatives from the professional bodies must not pull their punches when telling HMRC of their concerns JK said that having reviewed the National Audit Office (NAO) Report on the accuracy of processing Self Assessment Returns and compared it with the results in his office, there was some difference between the findings in the report and the experience of agents. He drew attention to the recommendations included at the end of the report concerning ways in which the processing could be improved and suggested that the WTSG should monitor the position to see if these recommendations have been implemented and what progress had been made.


9.2 SB informed WTSG that this would be TM last meeting as she was leaving the Business Customer Unit to take up a new post in Customer Contact. SB and the WTSG thanked TM for her great contribution in developing the HMRC relationship with agents and small business and wished her well in her new role.