Minutes of meeting of Working Together Steering Group (WTSG)
5 March 2008
HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC), 100 Parliament Street
Chair: Brian Redford (HMRC)
Secretary/Minutes: Jacqueline Stewart (HMRC)
Name |
Organisation |
|---|---|
Linda Allen (LA)– from 11.45 am -12.30 pm |
HMRC |
| Stephen Banyard (SB) | HMRC |
| Andrew Bryant (AB) | HMRC |
| Bernadette Kenny (BK) – from 12.30 pm | HMRC |
| Colin Kirk (CK) | HMRC |
| Madeline McGrillen (MM) | HMRC |
| Linda Maslen (LM) – from 12.00 pm | HMRC |
| Gerry Newman (GN) | HMRC |
| Brian Redford (BR) | HMRC |
| Tim Salt (TS) | HMRC |
| Jacqueline Stewart (JS) | HMRC |
| Mike Belfourd (MB) | Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland (ICAS) |
| Jean Jesty (JJ) | Association of Taxation Technicians (ATT) |
| Richard Mannion (RM) | Chartered Institute of Taxation (CIOT) |
| Brian Palmer (BP) | Association of Accounting Technicians (AAT) |
| Richard Shooter (RS) | Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales (ICAEW) |
| Elizabeth Parks (EP) | Independent Administrator for Working Together Steering Group (WTSG) |
1. Welcome, introduction and apologies
1.1 BR opened his first meeting of the WTSG by welcoming everyone and introducing himself, giving a high level overview of his role as Programme Director of the Agent and Employer Service Improvement Programme (AESIP) followed by a round-the-table introduction from all attendees.
1.2 Apologies were received from Simon Woodside and Derek Allen.
1.3 SB explained that HMRC recognises the importance of agents and it is focused on improving service to agents. Since the last meeting of the WTSG the AESIP has been formed and HMRC is making progress in improving service in the main operational areas.
1.4 SB acknowledged the support agents had given to HMRC through the data security issue and issues around filing at 31 January which was appreciated at the highest levels in the department.
2. Minutes of previous meeting and matters arising
Minutes of the last meeting were formally agreed.
Action points:
2.1 Action point 1: Post delays: Partners to let BK via TS have any examples where the HMRC reaction to the data loss was causing them problems. As no examples were received, all agreed to close this action. SB explained that a data guardian had now been appointed in each business directorate and transfer of data has been critically reviewed. Action closed.
2.2 Action point 2: Shared Workspace (SW): Partners to let MM have detail of any access problems so that they access them. MM confirmed that following the feedback from the February Professional Group meeting, she was happy to arrange a training session around SW to re-look at problems. MM confirmed she required feedback from partners on the areas they needed looking at in order that a tailored training session to re-launch SW could be arranged.
2.3 A discussion ensued around issues with logging and passwords and EP
requested a back to basics training session led by Alain Gray and that new
passwords be assigned to all partners. She has suggested a training session
for all partners to align with next PG meeting on 13 May.
Action point 1: MM to arrange training session around Shared
Workspace.
2.4 Action Point 3: Prioritising repayments: Simon Smith to review policy on repayment prioritisation. BR provided overview of current post position explaining that post turnaround was at an historic low, working R40s for traditional claims cases in 15 days of receipt and said that office processes in dealing with correspondence had been changed to allow repayments to be prioritised.
2.5 GN explained that Lean processing was introduced to work post on a first in first out basis but backlogs last year had led to some large and unacceptable delays in some offices, including repayments in some cases. The recovery plan put in place last year has succeeded in delivering the department’s lowest post on hand figure for four years. Where the majority of post is being dealt with in 15 days there is no need to prioritise repayments over any other types of post – and the danger is that by prioritising one element of post you de-prioritise another. The department’s longer term strategic direction was to review how Contact Centres can deal with repayments over the phone.
2.6 TS informed partners that following a meeting he had with Processing colleagues, they have agreed to provide monthly updates on post and processing for publication on the WT What’s New page of the HMRC website. BR confirmed that the update would include clear graphics to demonstrate post trends and would be a factual representation of the department’s processing position. TS agreed to JJ’s request that partners receive advance copy of the monthly updates.
Action point 2: TS to provide Partners with advanced copy of monthly updates prior to publication on an ongoing basis.
2.7 RM suggested that the ability to file repayment claims electronically would eliminate the need to prioritise claims made in paper form. SB explained that this facility had not yet been provided because funding for enhancements had been allocated to elements that were likely to provide greater benefits. A detailed discussion then followed and SB suggested that this should continue to be looked at within the e-services sub group and that HMRC should nominate someone from processing to review a way to progress this issue.
Action point 3: MM to arrange for Suzanne Newton to attend the next e-sub group meeting.
2.8 Action point 4: Processing: John Kimmer to provide Simon Smith with details of case where client’s return was passed from one office to another and return not processed. BR confirmed that this issue could not be taken further as information had not been received to progress further.
Action point 4: JJ will pursue this further and provide TS with information.
2.9 Action point 5: Communications Strategy: Engaging customers who are not computer literate. CK confirmed that this point was being taken forward via the work of the Tax Agents and Advisers Steering Group. Action closed.
2.10 Action point 6: BP to circulate response following 11 December e-sub
group meeting.
Linda Allen from the Carter Team is providing e-services sub group members
with communications on penalties and will discuss with WTSG later in the
meeting. Action closed.
2.11 Action point 7: Tax Simplification and Admin Burdens: JS confirmed that Jon Sherman has been asked to provide information for inclusion in the May briefing paper for local WT organisers for dissemination at their local WT meeting.
Action point 5: TS to investigate and report back.
2.12 Open point from September 2007 WTSG meeting – feedback on revamped WT Internet pages. TS explained that the actual action point from the September WTSG meeting was for partners to provide feedback on the revamped WT Internet pages. The partners have observed that although work has been undertaken on the WT pages, the HMRC site remains difficult to navigate with information hard to locate. It is hoped that the work that is being done on the Web Convergence Project (WCP) will address this.
2.13 The wider issue around problems in finding information published on the HMRC website was discussed. SB highlighted the new dedicated Agents Page that had been launched on the HMRC website, Agent Update and the work that is being taken forward via the WCP which was being user tested. MM confirmed that Chris McCarthy from the WCP is attending the next meeting of the e-services sub group to provide update.
2.14 BR acknowledged that we can do more to service agents using new and existing technology. He confirmed that the AESI Team will extract information from the spring budget report of interest to agents and circulate to partners.
3. ESCA19: Update
3.1 TS outlined the background, explaining that this issue first cropped up via WT last June and culminated in a meeting of interested HMRC parties. Following this meeting a response had been sent to ATT. He acknowledged that John Kimmer still had concerns and TS has sought agreement with the specialist for a meeting date to be set in April. Peter Robinson will contact John Kimmer within the next seven days to arrange a meeting to discuss concerns about the reasonable belief test and aspects of the existing guidance that might be improved. EP requested that Derek Allen also be involved in discussion as this is being raised by ICAS and BP advised that John Andrews from the Low Income Tax Reform Group is another interested party.
Action point 6: TS will pass on named agent contacts to Peter Robinson.
4. Sub group updates
4.1 TS suggested that as sub group reports are circulated in advance of the meeting for future meetings we should only include sub group updates by exception rather than as a matter of course. RM acknowledged that the e-services sub group was doing a huge amount of work and suggested that updates could be provided to a wider agent audience through the WT publication.
4.2 CK confirmed that the Contact sub group had not been specifically reinvigorated but its aims were well established in the AESIP. CK said that the Compliance sub group naturally falls within CRF and said that discussions continue about how this gets taken forward. RM said that a route plan was necessary and was happy with the suggested approach as long as partners were kept informed of development and progress being made within the sub group.
Action point 7: BR suggested that new powers and new penalties scheme be included on the next agenda of WTSG.
5. Agent and Employer Service Improvement Programme
5.1 BR circulated copies of the draft Programme explaining that this was on a confidential basis until it had been signed off internally. BR explained that the Programme would give impetus to a number of areas around agent concerns and move us towards a positive and trusted relationship. He assured partners that regular progress reports would be provided.
5.2 BR highlighted the Agent Priority Line (APL) introduced in the East Kilbride and Bradford Contact Centres explaining that calls were handled by advisers with over 12 months’ experience and went onto explain the warm handover arrangements in place. Surprisingly, less than 5 per cent of calls required a warm handover.
5.3 BR advised that Truth agency are carrying out an evaluation exercise which would be completed by end of March. Subject to the evaluation results, it is intended that the APL would be rolled out in a further two Contact Centres by the end of March followed by roll out in all Contact Centres if the evaluation supports this.
5.4 RM expressed the need for HMRC to ensure effective communications publicising the service to agents and suggested an article in the WT publication.
5.5 A discussion took place around difficulties experienced by agents when trying to contact the department. MM reminded the partners of the Doing Business with HMRC document produced and published on the Agents Page of the Practitioner Zone, which sets out how to contact HMRC.
5.6 RS suggested that a visit to the East Kilbride or Bradford Contact Centre for the partners to see the APL in action would be beneficial and EP suggested this could be followed up with an article for the WT Publication.
Action point 8: BR to arrange visit to East Kilbride or Bradford Contact Centres.
5.7 BR highlighted a further initiative to support agents explaining that Agent Account Managers (AAM) have been appointed in Ipswich and Edinburgh as a pilot to help navigate agents around the department. There are currently 35 agents involved in this pilot in each location and we are looking to extend this to 100. HMRC are working with Truth agency to evaluate the pilot.
5.8 BR explained that the majority of queries received related to processing so HMRC has set up a Customer Relationship Manager (CRM) in a further five locations, which are large processing offices. The agent base for these has been established by postcodes and there are currently 300 agents for each CRM. Again, this will be evaluated to understand if the pilot should continue and be rolled out further.
Service update
5.9 BR confirmed that from April 2008 performance levels in key processing areas will be reported on the HMRC website on a monthly basis. BR asked that partners provide feedback on the level of information they want. BR would circulate report prior to publication to gauge partners feedback.
Action point 9: Partners to provide feedback about the information that they would like to see reported on performance results. BR to provide advance copy of performance levels to partners prior to publishing.
VAT
5.10 RM raised concern that as a result of resource given to clear VAT Registrations, processing VAT De-registrations had suffered.
5.11 AB confirmed that there had been significant improvements in the department’s results in processing VAT Registrations – 70 per cent of applications being processed within 14 days. He went onto explain that there were two parts to De-registration: Pre-Deregistration which covers receipt of application to De-register and the issue of the final VAT Return and Post De-registration which involves checking of the final return and payment made. This was impacted due to staff being moved onto Registration work to support the recovery plan.
5.12 AB confirmed that a recovery plan was in place and that steady state was forecast by June 2008 and expected to be sustained.
5.13 BR confirmed that it was too early to see results in performance levels for De-registrations and confirmed that it was high on Dave Hartnett’s agenda. He also confirmed that AB would be contributing to the performance pack to be published on the HMRC website.
Agent authorisation
5.14 CK provided current position reporting that the Central Authorisation team in Longbenton is now processing form 64-8 within five days of receipt, consistent with the position of the last few months and expected to be maintained. CK confirmed that problems with the browser have been resolved.
5.15 CK confirmed that following the agent/HMRC visit to Longbenton in September 2007 there was internal work being done to review the 64-8 and the wider agent authorisation. He had received request from Jane Moore to be involved in the joint review and invited partners to contact him if they want to be involved.
Action point 10: CK will contact Partners outlining current thinking around the internal review of the 64-8 and requested partners reciprocate providing CK with details of any actions taken by partners with their own rep bodies as part of the joint review.
5.16 BR referred to the Programme plan and requested Partners feedback on any areas they think should be covered that the plan hasn’t already captured.
Action point 11: Partners to review plan and report any additional information/comments to BR.
5.17 GN highlighted that 2008 will see major changes to the tax system resulting in planned systems downtime which is expected to impact on performance levels for a time in the second half of the year but stressed that this was being managed and was being factored into planning. GN pointed out that the planned system changes would take us to a better place in 2009. BR added that this would be captured in our performance reporting.
6. Carter: Update on Carter Communications
6.1 LA prepared hard copy slides which were distributed at the meeting. She recapped on the major changes in the filing dates for 2008-09 and the work undertaken to improve Self Assessment filing for customers. These include redesign of the paper Self Assessment main return, redesign of the HMRC online application, and Self Assessment and in-year PAYE services going onto HMRC’s new portal.
6.2 LA explained what was being done to improve the understanding of the agent population and outlined the outreach activities being undertaken by the Carter Team to communicate messages around online filing. She thanked BP and JJ for their help with the design and valuable advice with the Direct Mailing.
6.3 LA explained that she was publishing an article in the May edition of Tax Adviser but was struggling to make in-roads into other main agent publications and asked for Partners’ help. RM suggested Taxation for best coverage.
6.4 LA advised that HMRC were tailoring the Self Assessment marketing campaign to different customer segments.
6.5 LA explained that there were lessons learned in the run up to 31 January filing deadline but stressed that HMRC responded quickly to the disruption to Self Assessment online filing service with clear messages about treatment of returns filed late. She accepted though that the department needs to be better around contingency messages and to have worked in partnership with agents on these. She also outlined the department’s soft landing approach for year 1 only of the new filing deadlines explaining that if a paper Self Assessment return is filed after 31 October, it has been filed late and the customer will be liable to a penalty of £100. However, if tax due is paid by 31 Jan, this penalty will be capped to nil for the first year only.
6.6 BR acknowledged that a small number of paper returns may not have been logged on day of receipt resulting in the automatic issue of penalties which we were unable to recall – a message has been prepared for What’s New to cover this.
6.7 LA went onto explain the department’s approach to the April release explaining that there were two groups established to oversee implementation – the Release Management Group responsible for the day-to-day management for releases and the Senior Contingency Management Group
6.8 BR suggested that LA attend the next meeting of WTSG to provide progress report on April releases.
Action point 12: JS to provide LA with details of next meeting date and venue.
7. Forum with Bernadette Kenny and Contact Centre Update
7.1 BR introduced LM to the meeting. LM provided update on the Agent Dedicated Line (ADL), acknowledging that this was a first step to help improve service to agents. She confirmed that the ADLs were working very well from the anecdotal feedback received. LM explained that Truth agency were carrying out an in-depth evaluation. Roll out to other Contact Centre sites is planned pending outcome of the evaluation. LM confirmed that she was happy for Partners to visit either the East Kilbride or Bradford Contact Centre to see first hand their operation.
7.2 LM headlined stats for the first nine weeks:
Calls handled, 21,130
96 per cent of calls answered within 20 secs
1.5 per cent of calls abandoned
5 per cent of calls were escalated to tier 2 and of these 6 per cent were
escalated to tier 3.
7.3 LM went onto highlight some further areas of improvement in the Contact Centres. Currently East Kilbride Contact Centre was running at 5 per cent service levels as a result of the deluge of calls in respect of coding issues, but LM explained that the facility to provide Advisers with access to all customer records, and therefore the ability to spread the workload around the network, will be introduced by the end of 2008, which should result in a better service being provided to customers. Staff training is also being reviewed and RM acknowledged that staff training is absolutely crucial if Contact Centres are the way forward in doing business with HMRC.
7.4 JJ highlighted problems with access to the VAT Helpline.
Action point 13: JJ to clarify example and let LM (via TS) have details in order to investigate further.
BR welcomed BK to the meeting.
7.5 BK explained that a lot has been happening in the department since she last met partners at the December Steering Group meeting. On the data loss issue BK advised that the interim report produced identified immediate actions which it acknowledged that HMRC had already instigated. Unfortunately some of these actions resulted in some initial disruption to customers which was regretted. BK confirmed that HMRC are confident in dealing with security issues around bulk transfer and a Director of Security has now been appointed and progress is being made.
7.6 BK outlined the new business structure for HMRC in broad terms, explaining that there will be four business groups which were defined by reference to the customer: Personal Taxes for individual customers, Business Taxes, Benefits and Credits and Enforcement and Compliance. Each will be headed by a Director General accountable for the affairs for that customer group. BK explained that she now has personal accountability for tax yield from Income Tax and National Insurance (60-65 per cent of tax yield for the Government).
Action point 14: BK to provide copies of the revised HMRC
operating model to Partners.
Post Meeting Note: This was issued to Partners on 6 March 2008.
7.7 She is currently working through her accountabilities regarding performance on tax yield and performance measures on standards of service being provided to customers.
7.8 BK referred to the recent advertisement in the Sunday Times for a new part-time non-Executive Chair for HMRC who was being appointed to help us through transition change management. BK then answered questions raised around governance and accountability raised by WT partners.
7.9 RM acknowledged the new management structure as excellent news.
7.10 A discussion around Lean Processing ensued. Partners suggested that this was introduced without the customer in mind. BK explained that the initial drivers for change were indeed efficiencies to meet financial targets but Lean not only created efficiency but focussed on the customer too . GN said that agents’ dissatisfaction seemed to be not with Lean, which had provided major benefits, but perhaps with signposting customers around the department following our reorganisation where we had more work do to ensure that customers get the right answer more quickly.
7.11 RM explained that agents deal with more complicated matters but there’s no direct route in and he was concerned with the ability of HMRC’s front line staff to deal with tax queries as effectively as they used to do. BK explained that the introduction of the Customer Relations Managers within the five Large Processing Office was a first step but accepted that more need to be done.
7.12 Discussion around the new filing date for paper returns took place and SB confirmed that the regime applies for paying tax – if filing by paper return, file by 31 October and pay by 31 January. RM stressed the need for new management around the new filing deadlines seeking clarification to what message agents can give. He felt there was a real opportunity to publish a good news story around 31 October filing date. SB confirmed he would give this more consideration.
8. AOB
8.1 JJ raised a question around problems with PAYE codings which RM answered, explaining that a sub group had been reconvened by Don Macarthur and issues are being looked at there.
8.2 JJ also requested update on the list of irritants provided by partners to SB. BR explained that these were captured within the Programme and a written update would be provided with the minutes. EP suggested an article for inclusion in the WT publication would be useful which BR considered a good idea.
Action point 15: BR to provide written update on list of irritants provided by partners.
8.3 BP requested further information on the email pilot in Portsmouth, BR gave a high level overview of pilot explaining that this had been reflected in the Programme plan.
Date of next meeting: 11 June
