HM Revenue & Customs, 100 Parliament Street
Chair: Brian Redford (HMRC)
Name |
Organisation |
|---|---|
Derek Allen (DA) |
ICAS |
Jean Jesty (JJ) |
ATT |
Richard Mannion (RM) |
CIOT |
Brian Palmer (BP) |
AAT |
Richard Shooter (RS) |
ICAEW |
Peter Jennings (PJ) |
ACCA |
Elizabeth Parks (EP) |
Independent Administrator for Working Together Professional Group (WTPG) |
Martyn Warren (MW) |
ICAEW |
Anne Wright (AW) |
CIOT |
Name |
Organisation |
|---|---|
Stephen Banyard |
Business Customer Unit |
Mike Clasper |
Non Executive Chairman of HMRC |
Steve Dobbin |
Business Customer Unit |
Pam Horton |
Business Customer Unit |
Allan McVittie |
PAYE, SA & NIC Processing |
Brian Redford |
Business Customer Unit |
Jacqueline Stewart |
Business Customer Unit |
Dmitri Surendran |
Business Customer Unit |
1.1 No apologies were received.
1.2 BR opened the meeting and welcomed Mike Clasper, non-Executive
Chairman of HMRC to his first meeting of WTSG and a round-the-table introduction
ensued.
2.1 WTPG provided MC with background to the role and function of WT,
highlighting that they have a shared objective that customers pay the right
tax at the right time. WTPG confirmed that the remit of WT is not about
policy but explained that policy decisions can lead to operational problems
and they see their role to challenge process where they feel it should be
challenged at the appropriate level.
WTPG has often been consulted by HMRC under Chatham House rules and that confidence is respected by WTPG.
2.2 WTPG highlighted issues of real concern for agents, including the feeling
that HMRC is too remote and with fewer staff resources, which is impacting
on client service; Contact Centre three-day call back service is unworkable
for agents, agent authorisation process, sterile contact, transfer of work
around the country, etc.
2.3 WTPG expressed their willingness to work with HMRC to make HMRC more customer focused and highlighting that agents have a multiplier effect. They also felt that with some thinking ahead there was a good opportunity for joint training events, eg New Penalties.
2.4 MC acknowledged the issues highlighted by WTPG explaining that he
recognises the benefits of the multiplier effect and sees the relationship
with agents as very important and working with them to make quality contact
with customers. He stressed the need to find ways of contacting our customers
and for our customers to feel that the tax system is simple.
2.5 MC confirmed that HMRC would look at processes for different types of customers including agents and confirmed that we would not be reverting to a regional structure. His feeling was that we should be looking more through the eyes of the customer to gain a deep understanding of their requirements. MC felt that the Customer Understanding Team are making real progress in this area and is confident that HMRC will be having a positive conversation in 24 months time on the customer experience.
2.6 MC invited PG to debate the intention behind the HMRC Vision, in particular the statements 'we are passionate in helping those who need it and relentless in pursuing those who bend or break the rules'. He stressed that HMRC are intent in making the vision a reality and aim to balance these statements.
2.7 MC concluded the session saying he was currently focused on putting structures in place to lead the department and improve morale but would like to spend more time with WTPG at a future WTSG meeting, explaining that from spring 2009 he would be spending more time engaging with customers.
2.8 SB joined the meeting and a discussion ensued around some of the agent issues discussed with MC during the open forum. RM highlighted examples where agent input could have made a difference if they were involved at an early stage.
2.9 SB highlighted the Business Payment Support Service covering the existing Time to Pay arrangements (TTP) that had been announced at the PBR. There is a centralised number set up for customers to contact in these cases - no limit applies to the debt that can be considered and this service has been well resourced. There are experienced officers in situ to deal with more complex cases.
2.10 A discussion ensued around small business and partnership cases in relation to the arrangements. SB confirmed that one agent can deal with an arrangement on behalf of all partners assuming they are authorised to do so.
2.11 WTPG felt that there was a lack of communications to publicise this service and SB highlighted that the professional institutes had received direct contact from the Business Customer Unit on the early evening following the PBR speech which was supported by information on the HMRC website. WTPG felt that further publicity was required to better expose the guidance to members and to make it clear that this is an additional service to what is already provided by HMRC. SB and RM agreed to work on the publicity together.
Action 1: SB and RM to work on publicity to better expose new TTP service to agents.
2.12 SB confirmed that David Ellis was leading the BPSS and would be happy to call WTPG to address PG concerns if they needed further clarification and invited WTPG to contact him with any further questions they may have.
2.13 The consensus view was that this was a very positive message and we should maximise exposure to agents.
3.1 BR confirmed that the minutes from the previous meeting had been agreed by correspondence and posted on the HMRC website.
3.2 WTSG agreed to deal with open actions on an exception basis and highlighted the following:
Action Point 13: Centralisation of Repayments: BR confirmed that an announcement would be made on 4 December on the future of a number of HMRC offices as part of the departments Workforce Change Programme. Rationalisation of services including the centralisation of certain Customer Operation functions would be announced once the detail of office closure announcements had been worked through. WTPG felt that a centralised briefing would be helpful and BR agreed to provide this.
Action 2: BR to let WTPG have centralised briefing.
Action Point 17: Meetings in Scotland - Rep Bodies' attendance at Local WT events: JS had provided latest position to EP in an email but now suggested that this action be treated as closed in view of the review the national WT team will be conducting as part of the proposals for the future of WT to review individual groups to judge whether they should remain.
Action Point 15: RM to provide BR with details of cases where there had been lack of clear communications around WFC Programme. RM confirmed this issue was cleared as details provided to BR.
Action Point Log: WTPG asked that 2-3 days notice be given to them before posting the action point log on Shared Workspace.
4.1 AMcV provided an update following the last meeting of WTSG explaining that as a result of the stricter data security requirements imposed across all government departments, it would no longer be possible to issue SA327s. The stricter data security requirements apply to all SA system outputs. AMcV confirmed that work had been undertaken to see whether it was possible to extract certain data to allow the issue of SA327s to agents to continue but this was not possible.
4.2 AMcV acknowledged that agents find the SA327s useful for the payslips and highlighted the other outputs HMRC issue in December. A Statement of Account or online filing and payment reminder or payment reminder is sent to every Self Assessment customer who has or may have an amount to pay by 31 January. These all include payslips. He confirmed that the issue of online filing and payment reminders would commence week commencing 8 December and cycle completed before Christmas.
4.3 BR asked PG how involved agents get in payments in the lead up to 31 January filing date and established that there was a real mix among the group. A discussion ensued around Statements of Account and View Statements and it was clear from discussions that agents could not rely on clients' statements to be forwarded to them and there was a mix of clients who would pay by cheque and those that want to pay electronically.
4.4 BR confirmed that the longer term aim was to communicate the message that the most secure way of paying liability is via electronic payment and agreed to work up a communications to capture the issues discussed at WTSG for PG to cascade to their respective institutes.
Action 3: BR to provide WTPG with communications paper for PG to cascade within their institutes.
4.5 WTPG thought that there was a limit on the amount that could be paid electronically and AMcV agreed to check the position and report back. It is also possible to make payments in a sequence in order to ensure the individual limits are not breached.
Action 4: AMcV to check whether there is a limit on the amount that can be paid electronically.
Post Meeting Note: AMcV has confirmed that the limit on the amount to be paid electronically is £99,999.99
4.6 AMcV confirmed that he was continuing to explore the possibility of an IT fix for View Liability and Payment facility in over-repayment cases with Aspire. Funding would be required to implement the fix but he hoped the cost would turn out to be much less than anticipated.
5.1 BR gave an overview of the work to date and confirmed that work has continued with externals to develop a joint training/communication event in February 2009 - the material will be written by January 2009. BR also highlighted that as a result of feedback that guidance had not been made available early enough, the publishing date was brought forward and guidance was published in November 2008 and is available for consultation until February 2009 and Catherine Gregory's team are happy to receive feedback.
5.2 WTPG expressed their support for the work being done here but highlighted that the consultation document was too lengthy for agents to provide quality feedback at their busiest time of year. They were concerned that their internal training needs to be reviewed in light of the new compliance checks and felt that there wasn't enough time for reaction to the changes.
5.3 BR asked PG what was happening on training in the commercial sector, experience is mixed with some external courses available but most firms are not focussed on this as yet. The new compliance checks are effective from 1 April 2009 but the reality is that they won't be applied for sometime thereafter. It was agreed that summer was perfect time for training and that joint training would be beneficial. WTPG highlighted the need to market courses now for summer 2009.
5.4 BR agreed to discuss lead times with Catherine and communicate outcome of discussions with PG.
Action 5: BR to discuss lead times with Catherine Gregory and communicate outcome with WTPG.
6.1 DS thanked the PG members of the working group for their involvement in the agent authorisation strategy and provided WTSG with an update. DS explained that the long term future of Agent Authorisation was to promote the use of online 64-8 but a more robust system was needed. There was currently a viability study being conducted but current indications show that a robust system could be up and running by October 2009. DS confirmed that the working group would be involved in the design of a revised process.
6.2 DS confirmed that good progress was being made in putting in place scanners to speed up the paper process and enabling more efficient retrieval of 64-8s and also improves CAAT's broader capabilities with regard to centralisation of processing.
6.3 A 'myths and legends Q&A' which address a number of areas where there is uncertainty amongst the agent community was issued in the November 2008 edition of WTB33.
6.4 DS also explained that work was being undertaken to raise awareness of the 64-8 emergency process, trying to get consistency as there are different local practices. Information on the practical steps that can be taken to improve access for agent authorisation are included in WT Bulletin and will be published on the Agent pages of the HMRC website in the next 2-3 weeks.
6.5 DS acknowledged that the key area of concern for agents for the January filing date was UTRs. He confirmed that from week commencing 8 December 2008 HMRC are launching a new process to assist with 31 January filing introducing a fast track system and Contact Centre helpline for obtaining UTRs. HMRC are confident that they can turn around issue of a UTR in five days and more information on this will follow on the agent pages of the HMRC website.
6.6 DS confirmed that for January 2009 only, our online system will accept dummy UTRs for partnership cases and publicity for this will be published on the HMRC website week commencing 8 December. WTPG felt that this should be badged as a win for WT. BR confirmed that he was intending to write to all agents who attended the Regional WT events to communicate the developments on the UTR process.
WTPG volunteered to communicate information to their members if HMRC were to work up communications.
Action 6: Brian to send information to WTPG and other communications contacts to ensure message was widely received.
6.7 WTPG said that thought needs to be given to foreign partners in relation to UTRS and DS confirmed that this was being built into the agent authorisation/UTR strategy work.
7.1 BR confirmed that the current position here was that from the department's perspective there was a fairly positive report received on progress to date on the reasonable belief test but he understood from the WTPG perspective that the same view was not held. WTPG have agreed to take this forward to the February 2009 meeting for further discussion. BR and SD agreed to take this issue forward in the meantime.
Action 7: BR/SD to take forward issue of ESC A19 with specialists and report back at the February 2009 WTSG meeting.
8.1 SD gave the background to this, explaining that he had been contacted by colleagues in Processing to gauge agent views to reordering the issues of forms P2 for Annual coding. Agents had complained that they were receiving their copies at least ten days after their clients and Processing thought it preferable that agent copies be identified up front and issued before the taxpayer copy. WTPG confirmed that they liked the idea, and also asked if the whole issue could be delayed until after the 31 January deadline. After consulting WTPG it then transpired that Processing had established that the agent copy of form P2 could not easily be identified at the print centre and the advance issue of the agent's copy of P2 couldn't therefore be taken forward. Processing also said that the P2 programme could not be delayed until after 31 January as this would not leave time for customers to respond before 6 April.
8.2 WTPG expressed their dissatisfaction on the 31 January point, explaining that they had made their representation on this before and found the answer provided by HMRC unacceptable. The issue date in January is the worst time of year and should be deferred to a later date, capturing information to issue correct notice of coding. WTPG highlighted the fact that this could be a win for HMRC, customers and their agents and employers.
8.3 SD apologised for consulting on this issue and then having to deliver a not so good outcome but he agreed to pursue further on receipt of DA's representation that will provide evidential research that has been carried out previously.
Action 8: DA to provide representation to SD for further consideration.
8.4 BR acknowledged this as an issue for agents and will champion this issue and will progress it as a high priority for WTSG.
9.1 BR confirmed that this issue was about the way we flow work in the department and asked that WTPG let BR have details of practical difficulties faced by agents in order to crystallise issues that are the grit in the system and champion them in the appropriate forum. PG agreed to discuss further and bring back to the February 2009 WTSG meeting.
10.1 BR provided report supplied by Processing:
Post on Hand each month for the last nine months is below that which HMRC recorded for the same months in 2007. However, clearance times had not improved to the extent anticipated. AESIP has commissioned work to look at the post journeys of correspondence from agents using the office in Bristol as a test bed. The pilot will look to identify whether there is a difference in the processes when tracking correspondence from taxpayer and agent to identify any new ways of working.
10.2 BR suggested a future workshop in Bristol with some PG representatives to consider and understand the outcomes of the review work.
11.1 SD explained that he had hoped to make available the final agreed version of the report. There were a couple of changes of emphasis to be made to the report but not to the content.
11.2 SD went onto next steps, explaining that he had worked with the National Working Together Team on the detailed plan following the report. There have been 11 discrete areas of work identified and about five of these will be looking for input from WTPG in February. SD said there was one exception to this - the work on the new communications system was urgent and an internal viability study was being run before Christmas. SD said he would email with first thoughts on this and would welcome any input offered by 12 December.
11.3 SD said he would include details of the other work to be done in his email.
11.4 SD confirmed that he and his team are working very hard to ensure the recommendations in the report are delivered for February and to follow up with Regional events, starting in March. To achieve that, the February WTSG agenda will be devoted to this work - SD agreed to email WTPG with the detail. WTPG agreed that the February 2009 edition of WTB could be dropped.
11.5 SD thanked everyone for their time on this piece of work and BR acknowledged that the Chairman and Melanie Dawes were very pleased at the collaborative effort on behalf of the WTSG in taking this forward.
12.1 WTPG were concerned that for CIS customers, Time to Pay arrangements resulted in loss of gross payment status. BR confirmed that this shouldn't happen but agreed to refer this to the BPSS team to provide clarification
Action 8: BR to provide feedback via Q&As on website.
12.2 BR explained that the Agent Dedicated Lines (ADLs) have received one quarter of a million calls with an 11-second average answer time. There are less than 2 per cent being escalated to tier 2, which whilst pleasing in terms of the tier 1 response adequacy suggested that HMRC would find it difficult to sustain the tier 2 resource as currently provided. WTPG are to consider what would be an acceptable step back from the current system provision and report back.
12.3 WTPG highlighted problems with call-backs and that feedback had been received from their members that the ADLs are not working. A debate ensued around whether the agents were actually confusing the ADLs with the Agent Priority lines or other contact centre numbers and it was agreed that more evidence was needed to take this issue further. In the meantime, BR would check out the position when he next visited the ADLs.
Action 9: EAP agreed to let SD have case details of the case she cited as an example.
12.4 BR opened a discussion on the existence and role of the WT Strategic Office Forum (SOF). The last two meetings mirror the agenda items discussed at WTSG. BR is conscious of the efforts the professional bodies give to the forums and has suggested that the SOF be reviewed and the issues where they are common be taken forward on the WTSG agenda with assurance that Customer Operations support will be in place for resolution. BR will review in the light of PG comments and consider with members of the SOF.
12.5 PJ acknowledged the attendance of Paul Abbott as national WT representative at the local Coventry/Worcs local WT meeting was recognised by members as most useful.
12.6 SD asked WTPG what their method was for refreshing new memberships as he had received expressions of interest from other institutes. WTSG asked that this be discussed at the February 2009 WTSG meeting.
