Minutes of meeting of Working Together Steering Group (WTSG)
3 September 2008
HM Revenue & Customs, 100 Parliament Street
Chair: Brian Redford (HMRC)
Name |
Organisation |
|---|---|
Mike Belfourd (MB) |
ICAS |
Jean Jesty (JJ) |
ATT |
Richard Mannion (RM) |
CIOT |
Brian Palmer (BP) |
AAT |
Richard Shooter (RS) |
ICAEW |
Peter Jennings (PJ) |
ACCA |
Elizabeth Parks (EAP) |
Independent Administrator for Working Together Steering Group (WTPG) |
Name |
Organisation |
|---|---|
Stephen Banyard (SB) |
Business Customer Unit |
Ros Bent (RB) |
Business Customer Unit |
Steve Dobbin (SD) |
Local Compliance |
Catherine Gregory (CG) |
(Compliance, New Powers) |
Paul Harrison (PH) |
(BCU, Agent Authorisation) |
Fiona Nellthorp (FN) |
(ICU, Taxpayer Charter) |
Allan McVittie (AMc) |
PAYE, SA & NIC SA Process |
Brian Redford (BR) |
Business Customer Unit |
Tim Salt (TS) |
Business Customer Unit |
Jacqueline Stewart (JS) |
Business Customer Unit |
1. Welcome introduction and apologies
1.1 No apologies were received.
1.2 BR welcomed everyone to the meeting and introduced WTPG to SD. SD will lead the Working Together team, covering the role undertaken by TS and with an extended remit to review the role and functions of WT that were emerging from the WT Regional Events currently underway. SD gave a brief overview of his previous roles and expressed his enthusiasm in working with WTPG in the future.
2. Minutes of previous meeting and matters arising
2.1 Minutes of the June WTSG meeting had been agreed by correspondence and have been posted on the HMRC website.
2.2 WTPG highlighted action points 5.5 (Proposal on SA Return), 5.7 (Client Account Information Sheets) and 5.10 (SA310) from the June 2008 WTSG minutes as actions they were raising on an exception basis.
Action: Alongside Action Point Log, JS to record on a separate schedule actions we need to address periodically.
2.3 WTPG gave an update on Action point 6, explaining that they had arranged communication to their members on the roll-out of the Agent Dedicated Lines (ADLs) and would arrange another round of communication to their members on completion of the roll-out of ADLs in October.
Action: WTPG to arrange further communications on ADLs to their members on completion of roll-out.
2.4 All other actions from previous meeting had been cleared.
3A. Client Account Information Sheets (SA327)
3.1 Following the last meeting of WTSG, AMcV reported that the Department are undertaking an internal challenge on the cost and volume of SA outputs per year. He gave a summary of outputs explaining that it costs the Department approximately £9.5m a year to produce and issue SA327s.
3.2 AMcV confirmed that following the suggestion from WTPG at the June WTSG meeting, it was possible to operate an opt-in facility for agents but highlighted that this would require additional investment to enhance the SA IT system and would require manual intervention to set the signal on the agent’s SA record.
3.3 AMcV provided an overview of the issues resulting from the June
run of statements explaining that producing and dispatching the SA327s to
agents is a complex output handling exercise because of the different sizes
of package which can lead to errors. In addition, recent data security considerations
suggested that these outputs would need to be dispatched under track and
trace type delivery arrangements which will result in an increase in the
cost.
3.4 AMcV explained that the Department therefore had a strong business
case to
stop the December 2008 SA327 run but needed a steer from WTPG on devising
a communication strategy around this.
3.5 WTPG explained that the December run of SA327s was a significant information flow for agents. They advised that they were not totally adverse to the idea but felt that the Department’s IT had to be more robust and there had to be adequate provision to run-off payslips before the information in this form could be halted.
3.6 WTPG highlighted a particular problem around the View Liability and
Payments facility explaining that this could not be accessed in some cases,
for example, over-repayment cases and was under the impression that there
was no intended IT fix.
Action: AMcV to check position on IT fix and report back to WTPG.
3.7 SB suggested that more research needed to be done to understand what use agents have for the SA327 run and introduce alternative payslips. It was the view of WTSG that as a result of the problems around the resulting IT problems from downloading payslips and the teething issues around online it would be damaging to the Department to turn-off the December CAIS.
3.8 There was a strong steer from PG that AMcV take WTPG’s representation
to the Post Challenge Panel and to feedback to WTPG on outcomes. AMcV was
also asked to produce an update paper for WTPG and to work with a couple
of PG members via teleconference to further debate the position on SA327s.
Action: AMcV to produce paper for WTPG on latest position regarding withdrawal
of SA327s.
Action: EAP to let BR have details of PG members who will work with AMcV on the issue of SA327s.
3B. Agent authorisation and UTR
3.9 WTPG were provided with a discussion paper prior to the meeting and PH and RB highlighted that WTPG input was very valuable. PH explained the background to the paper. WTPG expressed their deep frustration that despite providing feedback on agent dissatisfaction to the 64-8 process over a number of years and specifically at the visit to Longbenton in September 2007, the Department was no further forward in making improvements. WTPG felt that the Department needs to engage agents now and move this issue on.
3.10 BR explained that the feedback received to date from WTPG had been useful and was the basis for this review. Resource had been deployed to investigate why the process is not working and looking at how we can make it work. A discussion ensued around the issues faced by the Department. PH explained that linking up all key internal stakeholders has been challenging but real progress has been made.
3.11 A discussion ensued around the volume of agent authorisations being pushed out to local offices, currently there are only 60-70 per cent of forms being sent directly to CAAT. WTPG explained that agent’s use local offices as fail-safe for submitting their agent authorisations.
3.12 BR explained that a streamlined process whereby all 64-8s were submitted to one location in the Department was looking like an attractive option, but HMRC needed to evaluate the practicalities of this. SB and BR confirmed that resolving the issue of Unique Taxpayer References and their relationship with the 64-8 authorisation process was a top issue for the Department.
3.13 BR assured WTPG that it was a priority to ensure that the agent authorisation process be made easy and that it was crucial that it was designed so that it linked to other issues in this area. WTPG acknowledged that this was a big issue for members and WT credibility. BR acknowledged there should be more visibility around this for WTPG. The Department needs to introduce a credible system with early outcomes and WTPG to be involved in discussions. BR indicated that the time scale for the review and set of outcomes was 31 January 2009.
Action: EAP to let BR have details of 2 PG members to work with PH & RB on communications in time for December WTSG meeting.
3C. ESC A19
3.14 TS outlined the background, explaining that this issue was highlighted by John Kimmer, a former member of WTPG in June 2007 and related to concerns about the reasonable belief test and aspects of the existing guidance which WTPG thought might be improved. This was escalated to Peter Robinson (PAYE Employer Responsibilities).
3.15 Peter Robinson arranged for an internal review which was followed up with a meeting of agents and other representative bodies to fully understand the concerns of customers. Following this an internal workshop was held to examine the current processes for considering ESC A19 requests and the guidance that is available to staff. A meeting with agents and other representative bodies on 15 July 2008 discussed these findings and agreement was reached that new draft staff guidance would be shared and HMRC accepted an invitation from Paddy Millard to visit the offices of Tax Help for Older People to review a number of cases where ESC A19 had been allowed and refused in order to see if the concession is being applied consistently. A further meeting will be arranged to discuss the findings.
3.16 WTPG expressed concern over the time being taken to resolve this issue.
Action: JS to invite Peter Robinson to December WTSG to provide progress to date and discuss future communications strategy around this issue.
3D. CIS Queries raised by WTPG
3.17 TS explained that Ray Bourley had provided responses to WTPG by correspondence on the issues raised.
3.18 WTPG feel that the new CIS scheme is not working in practice. The
review
of gross payment status suggests that there is a very high level of non-compliance
in respect of filing Returns but WTPG feel that there is a real lack of
understanding of the requirements on contractors that is causing the problems
– documentation is not being issued or not being recognised or lost
therefore resulting in failures in compliance.
3.19 WTPG expressed concern that HMRC was not promoting good compliance through the new CIS and it therefore cuts across HMRC’s ambition to make it as easy as possible for our customers to get it right.
3.20 SB acknowledged that we need a firm position and suggested that BP and PJ discuss their thoughts with Ray Bourley. In the meantime, BR to ascertain whether the CIS Consultation group are sighted on these issues and to ascertain remit of this group and its members.
Action: BR to contact Ray Bourley re consultation group
3E. Late filing penalties
3.21 The WTPG asked for clarification about planned communications on late filing penalties for 2007-08 paper returns submitted after 31 October 2008 and the implications of Steeden v Carver. A copy of the article for the September WT bulletin had been provided prior to the meeting. They were also informed that additional supplementary guidance will be published on the HMRC website in mid October.
3.22 WTPG felt the wording in the article could be misinterpreted and that a clear message regarding penalties was not being conveyed.
Action: Kim Nicholas to contact Carolyn Parmeter to clarify wording around penalties.
4. Taxpayer Charter
4.1 WTPG were provided with a discussion paper prior to the meeting. FN explained that the former Inland Revenue Taxpayer’s Charter had been withdrawn on the creation of HMRC. It was now felt to be the right time to create a Taxpayer Charter for HMRC and work on this had been announced by the Chancellor.
4.2 FN gave an overview of the consultation and internal workshops held to date and the planned consultations for the year ahead. The extensive workshops with HMRC staff to gauge what they would like revealed that Rights and Responsibilities should feature highly within the Charter.
4.3 The view of WTPG was that the Charter should be an obligation on the Department to deliver, it should not be about obligations on the part of taxpayer as these are embedded in legislation. The Charter should state a balance of rights and responsibilities for both the Department and the taxpayer.
4.4 SB explained that with Rights and Responsibilities, we were looking for a partnership agreement, setting out what would help us do our job better.
4.5 The consensus view was that WTPG would not be involved in the design but would be interested in the operational impact of the Taxpayer Charter.
Action: JS to email WTPG copy of PowerPoint Slides
5. New compliance checks
5.1 WTPG received a discussion paper prior to the meeting. CG explained that she is responsible for the implementation of new powers and is attending the Regional WT events to send out a message of reassurance to agents that she will work in collaboration with them where she can.
5.2 CG explained that technical guidance was being compiled and would be available for external review week commencing 15 September 2008. WTPG would like to see a copy of the guidance to consider the operational impacts with a view to identifying any potential ‘grit in the system’. There is a need for agents to understand the risks and protect their clients.
5.3 BR acknowledged that Parliament will be keen to ensure that HMRC uses powers responsibly. CG gave assurance that strong key messages were being delivered to HMRC staff that the principles and practices of the powers will only be invoked in the appropriate circumstances.
Action: JS to invite CG to the December 2008 WTSG meeting to provide a quarterly update. Further updates requested at subsequent Steering Group meetings to keep WTPG informed as to progress.
6. WT Regional workshops
6.1 BR acknowledged the excellent contribution made by RS, DA & PJ at the Birmingham Regional WT event.
6.2 BR, RS, DA & PJ shared their experience of the day with WTSG members, highlighting what had worked well and identifying how best to structure future events using Birmingham as the benchmark. It was agreed that for the Bristol event, attendees would be asked to attend two workshops as opposed to three and to change colours of name badges to allow delegates to distinguish between HMRC and agents.
6.3 RS highlighted the issues raised by agents, including concern that issues flagged by WT groups are not being progressed and frustrations around the 64-8 process.
6.4 BR confirmed that the workshops would provide considerable information which will enable WTSG to look at how we go forward with a view to re-branding WT. He suggested that WTPG and HMRC be responsible for publishing a joint report on outcomes using the feedback from the events and setting the direction for WT for the future.
Action: HMRC & WTPG to compile and publish a joint report following feedback from WT Regional events.
7. Performance reporting
7.1 BR provided update on HMRC performance:
Publishing Performance Results
BR explained that work to publish performance results has proved to be more
difficult than anticipated. CIOT and ICAEW colleagues have worked with HMRC
in interpreting data and this proved challenging. The suite of figures,
whilst robust in terms of recording, does not provide the level of detail
that is needed for agents to be able to interpret the data for their clients
and advise on delays. Further work is underway to distil agent related performance
data to be able to explain performance form this viewpoint.
Centralisation of Repayments
As part of the wider development of HMRC’s organisational development,
plans are being considered to centralise certain areas of work in specific
locations, eg repayments worked from Leicester office. It was expected that
this would improve experience and skill levels for staff without the inconvenience
of it moving between offices.
Action: BR to ascertain timeline for the strategic movement of work of repayments and report back to WTPG.
Post
Levels have risen slightly but work has been prioritised to manage this.
WTPG expressed dissatisfaction that SA Returns are not being processed and
cited examples of Returns submitted in June that will not be processed until
October. BR confirmed that repayment case Returns were being sifted out
and dealt with as priority as would any cases where the customer or agent
asked for a return to be dealt with as a priority.
7.2 WTPG would have liked to have received earlier communication on this in order to manage members’ expectations and suggested an early message is posted on WT What’s New page to confirm the prioritisation plans.
Action: BR to review communications strategy around prioritisation and discuss with Processing colleagues.
8. Workforce Change (WFC) Programme
8.1 BR explained the background to WFC and wanted to gauge views of WTPG on whether there was any further work that the Programme could be doing with agents. WTPG highlighted a lack of clear communication in some locations. BR explained that there had been a significant consultation process with information published on the HMRC Intranet and being sent to all local authorities. BR asked RM to provide further detail of locations where there was insufficient clarity to enable him to investigate further.
Action: RM to provide details to BR.
8.2 WTPG confirmed that they were happy not to have the WFC Programme on the WTSG agenda as a regular item but regular updates should be posted in the WT Bulletin.
9. AOB
9.1 PJ raised concern about delays in communication on Manninen Cases – European Court decision on foreign tax credits.
Action: PJ to provide JS with detail of the problem and she will pursue.
9.2 JS highlighted that the local WT organiser in Scotland had contacted the rep bodies for members to attend local WT meetings but there were still gaps in rep body attendance at some of the meetings. JS will write to partners individually with details (copied to EAP).
Action: JS to contact WTPG who will arrange to field members to attend local WT meetings in Scotland where there is a gap in rep body representation.
9.3 TS asked WTPG if they were happy for the team to produce an extra copy of the WT Publication. He explained that we were trying to cut down the publication process, making it easier to accommodate extra editions. Members of WTSG acknowledged that the WT publication was a really good product. TS confirmed that partners’ involvement and contribution to the WT publication was very useful.
9.4 RM thanked Tim on behalf of WTPG for his superb contribution and support to WTPG in the last 16 months and wished him well in his new role. WTPG welcomed Steve to WT and look forward to working with him in the future.
