Liz Lathwood (CIOT)
John Andrews (LITRG)
Beth Lakhani (CPAG)
Pauline Hunter (Disability Alliance)
Kate Bell (One Parent Families)
Anita Monteith (ICAEW)
Joyce Humphrey (TaxAid)
Jayne McStea (Gingerbread)
Jane Hayball (LGA, Greenwich)
Carol Habberfield (LGA)
Peter Gravestock (ATT)
Emma Jenkins (LGA)
Katie Lane (Citizens Advice)
Nigel Jordan (Chairman), Roger Hurcombe, Chris Fox, Steve Murray, David Skinner, Vince Groome, Joanne Miller, Greg Henshall, Daphne Hooper, Margaret Price, Alison Dyer (Secretary)
Roger Pugh, Jimmy Murray
Apologies for absence were received from Richard Exell (TUC), Andy Platt
(NAWRA) and Nick Chaplin (HMRC).
After those present had introduced themselves, Roger Hurcombe (Director of the Tax Credits Programme) said it was important to listen to what representatives have to say and for HMRC to do whatever they can to help customers and improve the service they provide. At the same time, it is necessary to be realistic about what HMRC can do and sometimes difficult choices have to be made. There are not unlimited funds and IT changes cannot be made overnight. So, it is necessary to work together and understand the changes that can have the biggest impact for customers and agree the priorities on the Issues Log.
Roger outlined the changes in organisation in the new Department, which involve an interlocking matrix of responsibilities. Paul Gray will take over Board level responsibility for tax credits from Dave Hartnett at the end of May. Sarah Walker will be responsible for the products and processes of tax credits and benefits, including design and assuring delivery of policy intentions.
There will be a champion for managing customer relationships for individuals (including tax credits). The main operational responsibilities are as follows:
The Tax Credits Programme will continue for the next few months as the activities are moved to the new organisation. The Consultation Group will continue under the Programme while it exists, but is likely then to move to the Customer Champion area.
Nigel Jordan said that for this meeting’s agenda he had selected issues that were of more immediate concern and he proposed that during the meeting some items should be identified that could be addressed and taken forward more quickly by small working groups.
Nigel said that it was unfortunate that events had conspired against us having a meeting since January – the meeting planned for 16 March was postponed at the request of representatives as it coincided with Budget Day and by the time of the meeting planned for 14 April the general election had been called and it would not have been possible to have a meaningful meeting at that time.
One representative requested a chart of the new HMRC structure and asked how the role of 'champion' would work. Roger Hurcombe said the intention is for this to be a partnership – the key is close integration between the various areas and the details are to be worked up.
Full-time education – one representative was concerned about Child Tax Credit being paid up to the age of 19 after HMRC have been notified that a child is continuing in full-time education after the age of 16, as most children will leave full-time education before they reach the age of 19. She felt targeted letters would not be the best fix on this point. HMRC said they would need to look at this and also what happens with information provided for Child Benefit purposes, but tax credits are more automated than Child Benefit and predictive dates are more difficult to deal with. The representative said that her body were considering some publicity on this matter as the current position could lead to unnecessary overpayments that, in some cases, would have to be recovered by direct payment (where the young person was the last in the family and there was no ongoing entitlement to WTC there would be no ongoing award from which to recover the overpayment). This seemed unnecessary bureaucracy for everyone.
Pension Credit/WTC- policy intentions – David Skinner will provide a note to go out with the minutes.
HMRC are to review the appeals leaflet WTC/AP later in the summer and will let representatives see the revised text.
Steve Murray said that appeals are acknowledged and registered within 48 hours. There is currently a delay of around 7 weeks until they are worked on, but then there should be no delays and cases are resolved as soon as possible.
At the end of 2004/05 44,000 appeals had been received, 37,000 had been dealt with and 11,500 were on hand (this number takes into account a number brought forward from 2003/04). In 2004/05 1,832 cases were referred to the Appeals Service and 1,638 of those were resolved, the average time taken from submission to the Appeals Service to resolution being seven and a half weeks. Cases that are referred to the Appeals Service are often intractable cases where agreement cannot be reached - for example, where there is a dispute as to who is the main carer or where there has been a backdating request for a period greater than that provided for in legislation.
The Tax Credit Office (TCO) do resolve many issues by telephone or written contact with claimants. Steve Murray said that the majority of correspondence on appeals does fail HMRC’s correspondence turnround target.
One representative was concerned that people use the terms “appeal” and “complaint” wrongly and it was necessary to recognise when people are making an appeal. HMRC said that people should call the Helpline and tell them what they think is wrong and the adviser will explain the award notice to the claimant. If HMRC agree that the award notice is wrong, they will arrange for it to be changed and, if they cannot change it, they will explain why. If claimants still want to appeal, they should do so in writing. HMRC will check the call type process on this.
Post-meeting note: the process is as described above.
Representatives said there have been cases where there has been no breakdown of calculations and the Appeals Service has rejected such cases. Steve said he was aware that there have been difficulties with the quality of submissions from TCO and providing Tribunals with exact figures. He will check the extent of the problem and review the quality of submissions.
One representative said that changes of circumstances are not always recorded at the time of a call to the Helpline and sometimes it takes two or three calls. HMRC said that changes are recorded at the time a call is received. Nigel Jordan asked if there were problems with any particular changes of circumstances. One representative thought they were mainly about hours of work, income changes or changes in household. Changes in the household do, of course, mean that a new claim has to be made. HMRC will look at the call type process on household changes to check that it prompts the adviser to ask the claimant to submit a new claim where a household change has been notified and there is still an entitlement to tax credits.
Post-meeting note: the Helpline guidance is for the adviser to establish if eligibility still exists in the new circumstances and, if it does, the adviser would invite the claimant to make a new claim.
Nigel Jordan explained that the team at Graeme House, Liverpool has been set up to handle complex enquiries that the Helpline cannot deal with and refers to it. It makes outbound calls and calls the customer within 36 hours, even if it is just an interim response. The team takes ownership for enquiries. Representatives wanted to know whether they could let people know about the team. Nigel said he will check. He also said call volumes and type do not justify the setting up of a technical line for professional advisers.
Post-meeting note: HMRC confirm that representatives may inform others of the team at Graeme House as follows:
“To improve customer service, the Tax Credit Office have created a team based at Graeme House, Liverpool whose role is to handle the telephone calls that cannot be fully resolved by Contact Centre staff. In these cases, the customer is told that they will receive a call back within 36 hours – a seven days a week operation. The Helpline make a referral to TCO where an operator takes ownership for resolving the query in conjunction with other appropriate areas of TCO. It may not be possible to resolve the query within 36 hours, but the customer will receive a call back informing them of progress and will receive regular updates thereafter if the query cannot be resolved quickly.
Also contained within Graeme House is a small team which provides a dedicated call handling service to intermediaries, such as Citizens Advice and Child Poverty Action Group.”
One representative asked about the target time for dealing with appeals. HMRC said that they aim to deal with 80% of correspondence within 15 working days and 95% within 40 working days, but there was no separate turnround target for dealing with appeals.
One representative was concerned that appeals should be prioritised, particularly where claimants are entitled to maximum Child Tax Credit and not getting it. She also asked whether there was any analysis of the cases settled by agreement. HMRC said they would look at this.
Representatives also asked what is meant by settled by agreement. HMRC said this is where there is agreement on both sides and settlement on this basis is followed up by a letter. Representatives thought this was a subject that should be covered in the next (July) edition of “In the Know” with a cross reference to Tax Credits Bulletin 20 which provided a lot of useful information on tax credits appeal procedures.
Steve Murray said he would be interested to look at any appeal representatives might want to refer to him.
Representatives asked if agents’ fees are paid as direct costs. HMRC confirmed they are. One representative asked if the Helpline know this. HMRC will check this.
Representatives had raised a new issue on the Issues Log about TCO staff telephoning customers at unsocial hours to discuss compensation. Steve Murray said TCO do call customers to try to resolve complaints quickly and amicably. There are set parameters for compensation and they should not get involved in “horsetrading”. HMRC said they will check whether they are getting the balance right.
A new issue on the Issues Log referred to letters to a CAB that contained errors and were confusing. Steve Murray said that TCO do use standard paragraphs in their letters and they are checking the quality of these. He will report the progress of TCO’s review at the next meeting. Representatives were invited to send in examples of incorrect letters.
Representatives were concerned about the lack of awareness of the availability
of additional payments and the Helpline not telling claimants about them.
HMRC will review this.
Post-meeting note: the guidance on additional payments for Helpline advisers
has been updated.
Representatives also asked if the Tax Credits Manual is available to advisers. HMRC said that it is, but advisers use the call type processes to facilitate speedy, consistent responses.
One representative felt Tax Credits Bulletin 25 contained some contentious statements about child care vouchers and that employers were referring people to the Helpline. HMRC will check the Helpline script on this.
Post-meeting note: the Helpline guidance on child care vouchers is that child care vouchers do not form part of the claimant’s income for tax credits purposes and should not be included as part of the child care costs incurred by the claimant.
The representative was also concerned about the position next year when the help with child care costs increases to 80% and about the reduction in notifiable eligible costs.
HMRC said that the tax credits computer system is stable and there are no major issues.
Representatives said they had received many calls while the computer system was being upgraded in April and said it would have been helpful to have known about this in advance. HMRC apologised for not informing representatives about this, but added that downtime should not affect claimants’ payments. The next downtime will be on 7 November and there will be downtime around every 6 April date. HMRC will let the Group know of future downtime dates, and what general impact (if any) that might have for customers. HMRC said that there were some delays in award notices being issued in April following claimants notifying them of changes of circumstances, but the Helpline was briefed on this.
One representative referred to people going to local offices and being denied payments. HMRC said these were claimants who had not signed their award notices, but payments were not stopped without warning.
HMRC said there were several issues on backdating and they would need to review the core process, including effective dates. This is a subject where they felt that it would be helpful to involve representatives.
One representative was concerned that customers were losing out as a result of incorrect backdating. HMRC said the system looks to see if a claim for CTC can be backdated and sometimes it does so over-generously. For WTC, backdating depends on the working situation in the previous three months and people need to claim. A representative was also concerned about claims of asylum seekers. HMRC said a team is reviewing this.
Another representative mentioned delays for IS/JSA customers claiming CTC. Jobcentre Plus offices use a fast-track pro-forma. HMRC acknowledged that the fast-track process was not always working as it should and they are looking at this with DWP. DWP said that the e-portal is used widely across the country, but they needed to establish where it was not being used. They are monitoring cases to ensure the correct procedures are being followed. Another representative asked for reassurance that people who had missed out on backdating would receive their backdated entitlement. HMRC said they would pay an underpayment, at any time, if Official Error had led to the underpayment.
Nigel Jordan said that HMRC have recently introduced streamlined procedures to clear the current backlog of disputed overpayment cases. He gave an outline of the new procedures. HMRC will let the Group have examples of the letters that TCO send to claimants following the review of their overpayments.
Post-meeting note: HMRC have provided the Group with the example letters to claimants and Nigel Jordan wrote to the Group about the streamlined procedures on 27 May.
HMRC said that provisional payments for 2005/06 would be based on the latest income details held. A Tax Credits Bulletin covering this is to be issued. Post meeting note – this has now been issued (Bulletin number 28).
Better-off calculations – DWP said they needed to better understand the issues and would like to be involved in a working group on this subject.
National Insurance numbers (NINos) - DWP said that they do not allocate temporary NINos. They interview the customer and send notification to HMRC that the interview has taken place, and whether they are satisfied about the customer’s identity. HMRC can then allocate a temporary NINo in order to pay tax credits. DWP acknowledged there are NINo interview backlogs which they are working to reduce.
Face-to face advice – DWP said that claims for tax credits would be facilitated, using the e-portal, and fast-track processes where necessary, as part of the first contact and work-focused interview processes. In addition, where customers make general enquiries on tax credits, receptionists will access the “View Only” facility to ascertain information, or call the Helpline if necessary. If a change of circumstances is reported, the receptionist will complete the change using the e-portal while the customer is present. If a customer is making general enquiries about tax credits, staff will be able to offer general information, and advise how to make claims.
Housing Benefit/Council Tax Benefit – there has been amending legislation and a memo (A5/2005) has been issued to staff clarifying that the actual amount of tax credits in payment should be taken into account for HB/CTB.
Disability Living Allowance awards – Although there are clear procedures for DWP to notify HMRC where DLA awards have been made, these appear not to be fully effective. It was agreed that this subject be addressed by a small working group outside the meeting.
Quality of advice – In order to take corrective action, or remedial training, DWP need details of instances where there have been problems with advice given. Representatives mentioned training of NDLP advisers, Housing Benefit/Council Tax Benefit advice, the importance of making protective claims, the need for people claiming IS to claim CTC and the Social Fund.
IS/JSA Migration – DWP said that they are looking at communications on the migration and will share any drafts with the Group.
A note outlining the Civil Partnership Act 2004 and the implications for tax credits claimants was issued before the meeting. HMRC said that civil partnerships would be included in the next “Tax Credits Update”, due to be issued in July, and would also be publicised in targeted press.
One representative was concerned about overpayments which might arise where affected claimants did not notify HMRC that they had become a couple under the new law. There would have been no change in their household composition. They would also need to be aware of the need to make a new claim. HMRC said that each case would be looked at individually.
Nigel Jordan proposed that working groups, comprising members from HMRC/DWP and representatives, should be set up for the following subjects:
Additionally, two groups comprising HMRC and DWP officials, would be set up to consider the subjects of milk tokens and correspondence.
The next meeting will be on Wednesday 13 July 2005, starting at 10.00am,
in the Conference Room, 3rd Floor, 22 Kingsway, London WC2.
