Tracy Gale (chair)
Dashiell Caldwell
Sean Griffin
Paul Stevenson
Kevin O’Hanlon
Denis Fitzgerald
David Skinner
Michael O’Connor
Colin Stewart
Andrew Burland
Irenka Timlin
Bernie O’Gorman-Local Government Association
Joy Flynn-Disability Alliance
Katie Lane-Citizens Advice
Victoria Todd-Low Incomes Tax Reform Group
John Andrews-Low Incomes Tax Reform Group / Social Security Advisory Committee
Maureen Arthur-National Association of Welfare Rights Advisers
David Brodie-TaxAid
Siobhán Harding-Citizens Advice NI
Jane Moore-Institute of Chartered Accountants of England & Wales
Angela Williams-Institute of Chartered Accountants of England & Wales
Robin Williamson-Low Incomes Tax Reform Group
Tracy Gale welcomed everyone to the meeting. She said that the group would in future be known as the Benefits & Credits Consultation Group to reflect the full range of work the group is involved with.
Paul Stevenson briefly outlined the process where an overpayment is identified:
Paul Stevenson said that there are some overpayments that are not practicably recoverable. HMRC will consider remitting or writing-off debts where it would not be value for money to collect them.
It was also acknowledged that some debt recovery cases are not being actively pursued by DMB. The number of cases on DMB's system has increased. Victoria Todd said that she had seen cases, previously dormant, where DMB then pursued the claimant vigorously. Representatives expressed concerns that if claimants had no contact from HMRC they would assume that the debt has been written off, especially in cases where dispute letters have been sent and not answered.
Paul Stevenson said that from 18 August customers can ask HMRC to stop recovery of an overpayment which is being recovered by direct payment where they are also paying back another overpayment from an on-going award at either 10 per cent or 25 per cent.
Victoria Todd asked whether there is an automatic process to identify customers affected by this. She said that information about stopping recovery should be included in the information Contact Centre staff give to ensure claimants are aware. Katie Lane said that there should be information on the TC610 or the IDMS15.
Paul confirmed there is no automatic process but confirmed HMRC are continuing to explore this. HMRC are also considering how they communicate the availability of this policy change other than through COP 26. Victoria Todd said that COP 26 was not enough because claimants would only get this if they dispute the overpayment,
John Andrews asked what the position will be where the customer has a tax debt as well as a tax credits debt. Tracy Gale said that the way this is dealt with needs to be clarified in the guidance available to HMRC staff.
Katie Lane asked what the position is where customers have a debt to DWP as well as HMRC. Paul Stevenson said that this is being considered by DWP and HMRC.
David Skinner said that HMRC are preparing a response for representatives about stopping recovery on direct payment cases following an action point at the TCCG meeting in July.
Paul Stevenson said that from 21 September, where an overpayment arises from a joint claim, but subsequently there is a household breakdown, each person will only be asked to repay a maximum of 50 per cent of the overpayment. He said that HMRC will not refund any overpayment where one of a couple has already repaid more than 50 per cent, but they will stop recovery if more than 50 per cent has already been repaid.
Representatives again asked whether this was automatic and HMRC indicated it was not. Victoria Todd said that COP 26 needs to be updated, but that claimants should be told of this when they contact DMB otherwise they will be unaware of these arrangements.
Paul Stevenson said that some customers were asked to change their PAYE code to recover an overpayment. He said that the pilot had confirmed this was an attractive option for customers to pay back an overpayment as almost 50 per cent had taken up the offer. Paul said that HMRC are working with DWP to consider whether small overpayments can be recovered from DWP benefits. This would be on a voluntary basis only.
Victoria Todd and Katie Lane highlighted that the area of Hardship remains a problem and representatives are frustrated that no-one in HMRC has adequately explained the processes that are in place to deal with hardship requests. Representatives feel that this is not acceptable as HMRC are dealing with the most vulnerable of customers. Victoria Todd highlighted a case that LITRG had sent that has not had a decision made since last summer on Hardship and seems to have disappeared despite it being sent through the consultation group. An action point was taken to follow up the case.
Victoria Todd asked how long HMRC will take to respond to customers who have said that they are in hardship. Representatives stated that they felt the current processes in relation to hardship were not acceptable.
Paul Stevenson said that there can be instances where customers are not currently able to repay, but HMRC can arrange with customers to revisit these cases in the future to see whether their circumstances have changed enabling them to repay the overpayment. Katie Lane said that customers need to be kept informed of what is happening. Paul said that because of resource pressures some cases are not being worked as quickly as they should, and that work is underway to try to resolve this. The group would be given an update on progress at a later date.
Paul Stevenson said that the Debt Campaigns are an approach to resolving overpayment issues. He said that HMRC will consider 200,000 termination cases where the customer is no longer in the tax credits system this autumn. Where it is identified that the customer is in financial hardship HMRC will need to acknowledge this and, where appropriate, either suspend recovery for a review of the customer’s financial circumstances at a future date or, in exceptional cases remit the debt.
Paul Stevenson said that Ministerial permission has been given for HMRC to pilot a wider range of enforcement options to recover debts. Distraint action will be considered against no more than 200 customers who have been overpaid because they knowingly manipulated their tax credits claims, resulting in penalties being applied. These cases will be strictly monitored and a report about them will be given to the Minister.
Tracy Gale asked representatives whether the guidance around the recovery of overpayments is clear. Representatives expressed frustration that a lot of time had been spent on making suggestions for the guide and pointing out where deficiencies or incorrect information still existed.
Victoria Todd said that the process described today appeared to differ to the recent guidance representatives had seen. She said that there is not enough guidance about the treatment of hardship cases and it is not clear which staff should make hardship decisions. Katie Lane said that the guidance note for intermediaries is contradictory.
Katie Lane asked if figures are kept around the number of cases where debt is remitted because of hardship. Paul Stevenson said that the data HMRC holds would not reliably show this as a separate category.
Tracy Gale said that she would make Nick Lodge aware of the issues raised by representative and arrange a high level one off meeting to discuss these issues.
Andrew Burland said that an update on the action points from previous meetings had been sent to representatives.
There has been a meeting with Refugee Integration providers and JobCentre Plus colleagues to take forward an exercise to try to get more people who have been granted refugee status through the fast-track process for tax credits.
A meeting has been arranged for 30 September
A meeting has been arranged for 19 October
As part of the ongoing review of tax credits HMRC said that they would like to see whether there are any further ways in which the rules for the disability element and severe disability element of CTC and WTC can be simplified. They said that they wanted to establish a Disability Working Group to help take this forward and said that they will send an email to representatives asking who will be interested in taking part in this.
Andrew Burland said that a joint meeting with JobCentre Plus due to take place on 23 September. An agenda has been circulated by JobCentre Plus.
Victoria Todd asked for an update on the DLA scan. Andrew Burland said that he will ask Irene O’Brien to provide this.
Following a request from CAB it is proposed to arrange a meeting around looking at cases with the Adjudicator in late October or early November.
Andrew Burland said that the model answers from the mystery shopping exercise would be circulated shortly.
Tracy Gale introduced Colin Stewart and explained that he manages the Customer Service and Support Group (CSSG) in the Tax Credit Office.
Colin Stewart explained that CSSG deal with tax credit appeals, complaints,
disputed overpayments and ministerial cases. He said that members of his team had already met individually with some representatives and that he also hopes to be able to meet with other representatives. Colin said that he wants to understand what the problems are in his area which affect the representatives and their clients.
Colin Stewart said that the intake for disputes and complaints had decreased and turnaround times should therefore be quicker. He said that on average disputes were being dealt with in 6 weeks, reviews in 3.5 weeks and complaints in 3 weeks. Victoria Todd asked when this timing is measured from. Colin said that it is measured from the time HMRC receive the work. Victoria asked whether there are a lot of cases that exceed these times as she was aware of cases that had taken longer to deal with. She said that she would like to see further contact with customers where work took longer to deal with so that customers were kept informed of progress. Colin said he would be happy to consider this and that this could be further discussed in one to one meetings.
John Andrews asked how many locations are used for CSSG work. Colin Stewart said that there are three sites, in Belfast, Liverpool and Preston. John asked whether HMRC measure clearance times across teams in each individual site for comparison purposes. Colin said that there is a focused process for measurement in TCO. He said that there is ‘line balancing’ across sites. John said that HMRC need to communicate with customers; as he said that customers cannot cope with silence. Colin said that he would look into this.
Colin Stewart said that the intake of appeals work has increased by 55 per cent. He said that he hoped to have further information about why this has happened at the Appeals sub-group meeting on 19 October.
Victoria Todd said that the Tax Credits Helpline had in some instances refused to backdate the disability element of claims, which will have meant those customers ended up appealing. Colin Stewart said that he would contact Victoria to discuss this.
Colin Stewart said that his team are working with the Adjudicator’s office to help reduce turnaround times. John Andrews said that the Adjudicator’s Office say that it can take up to 12 months for them to reply to complaints. Colin said that TCO are working with the Adjudicator’s Office to improve the situation.
Colin Stewart explained the focus on quality in CSSG. The target for quality is 80 per cent and TCO are hitting this target. He said that it is intended to increase the target to 85 per cent. Colin said that he would welcome feedback from representatives about quality issues.
Victoria Todd said that it is necessary for TCO to differentiate between appeals and disputes for customers. She said that when customers contact TCO they are sent COP26 and a dispute form and there is no explanation of the appeals process. As a result of this customers dispute decisions which they should be appealing against. Katie Lane said that the guidance for HMRC staff around appeals and disputes needs to be clear. Colin Stewart said that this issue will be considered at the Appeals group meeting on 19 October.
Colin Stewart asked representatives for their experience of the new Intermediaries’ Disputes & Complaints service in CSSG. Katie Lane asked whether it would be stated on letters that they came from the intermediaries’ team. Colin said that he would look into this.
Representatives then asked about wider operational issues in CBO and TCO. John Andrews asked for an update on the ‘In and Out of Work’ pilot. Colin Stewart said that HMRC would provide a written update.
Katie Lane said that representatives were concerned about the length of time HMRC were taking to clear complex Child Benefit claims. Colin Stewart said that 69 per cent of customers were paid within 9 days of receipt of claim throughout the summer. He explained that in the year to date 72 per cent of customers have been paid within 9 days. Colin said that complex cases take longer to deal with as Child Benefit Office have to wait for replies to correspondence before they can consider payment of Child Benefit. This can result in significant delays in some cases.
John Andrews asked whether there had been a change in legislation relating to EC cases in terms of contacting other member states to verify information. Andrew Burland said that the law had not changed but there had been a change in the process. Victoria Todd asked if it is a requirement for Child Benefit to get information from a member state. Katie Lane asked for further information about the reasons for delays. Tracy Gale said HMRC would look to see whether Child Benefit Office has information about this which can be sent to representatives.
Victoria Todd asked whether tax credits can be processed before a decision is made on a Child Benefit claim. David Skinner said that this is correct and asked representatives to send details if they were aware of customers who had been told otherwise.
Colin Stewart said that the Child Benefit intermediaries' helpline is now operational and asked representatives to let him know of any problems they experience.
Bernie O’Gorman said that representatives are seeing cases where there are delays in new claims following the death of a partner. Tracy Gale asked representatives to send HMRC examples of these cases so that they can investigate what is happening.
John Andrews said that representatives had been unable to fax TC689’s through to the advertised fax number recently. Andrew Burland said that this was an isolated problem which has now been resolved.
Colin Stewart said that the Operational Update would be issued with the minutes. He provided an update on Renewals:
John Andrews asked for figures around the number of notional entitlement cases and the number of cases transferred to DMB. David Skinner said that HMRC will look to provide these figures.
John Andrews suggested that HMRC look at a sample of 1,000 cases to establish why some customers do not renew. Andrew Burland will raise this with Helen Smith.
Irenka Timlin said that she is managing the Guidance Assurance Project (GAP). She said that she had recently sent a briefing presentation on GAP to representatives. Irenka said that the project initially concentrated on tax credits but has now been expanded to also look at Child Benefit and Health in Pregnancy Grant (HiPG).
Irenka Timlin said that GAP looks at the guidance around how processes are handled. Issues raised by the business are evaluated on the basis of risk to the customer and to the business and prioritised accordingly. For each issue the process is tested to ensure compliance with legal and technical advice and the system capability. Once the most important issues have been assured the project will look at the end to end process to ensure that all the guidance is fully fit for purpose.
Irenka Timlin asked representatives to let her know if they have concerns so that they can be considered.
Irenka Timlin said that:
Irenka Timlin said that when guidance has been assured any updated guidance will be published on the Internet first. It is not possible to update printed guidance at the same time as the Internet is updated. These will be updated over a longer period.
Irenka Timlin said that it is expected that all priority tax credits issues will be completed by November 2009. Child Benefit issues should be completed by November 2010.
Katie Lane asked whether the HiPG review would cover all aspects of HiPG. Irenka confirmed that it would. Katie asked whether the review would cover other benefits customers are entitled to, such as Sure Start Maternity Grant. Irenka Timlin said that call type processes would probably signpost other benefits but she said that she will confirm this.
John Andrews asked about the guidance for childcare vouchers. He said that existing HMRC literature directs customers to contact the Helpline. Irenka Timlin said that communications is a separate area to the review. Irenka said she will find out what is happening about childcare voucher information and let the representatives know.
John Andrews asked what guidance will be available to customers around checking the ongoing registration status of their childminder. Tracy Gale said that this issue was being considered by her team.
Victoria Todd asked whether gaps in guidance around ‘Official Error’ will be addressed. Irenka confirmed that they will.
Victoria Todd asked if there will be an archive of older guidance following the changes. HMRC confirmed that they will keep copies of older guidance
Victoria also mentioned that the technical changes around disability from April this year didn’t yet appear to have been incorporated into guidance. Tracy Gale said that HMRC would check this with the Technical Team.
Irenka Timlin said that a lot of activity is being focused around this issue
Victoria Todd explained that she had asked for this item to be put on the agenda as it was an area of immediate concern. She considered that HMRC had failed to communicate adequately the existence of backdating and how to obtain it. Victoria explained that a WTC only claimant filling in the claim form would not find any reference to backdating on the existing claim form, or in the guidance notes. The website does not specifically explain that this group will not get automatic backdating, nor does it explain how to get the backdating. Victoria made the point that in her experience all other Government claim forms asked about backdating on their claim forms.
Victoria Todd said that HMRC needed to make sure that all claimants who have missed out on backdating are identified and compensated.
In addition, concerns were raised about the processes that are in place for backdating which left some people following the appeals process in order to have their case considered.
John Andrews recognised the steps HMRC were taking with WTC 1 and 2 to alert people to the backdating issues but stated that this was not enough. He asserted that only a review of all past claims to confirm that everyone had received that to which they were entitled would be satisfactory.
For the future a prominent change on the claim form and notes would be acceptable for this group if HMRC cannot give the backdating automatically.
The Benefits & Credits Management Board will be considering how the issues around backdating are to be taken forward. Tracy Gale said that representatives will be given further information once the Management Board have considered the issue.
Denis Fitzgerald said that tax credits staff had started visiting Children’s Centres in June 2009. They are visiting 101 Children’s Centres where they are meeting with families and engaging with staff in awareness sessions about tax credits.
Denis Fitzgerald said that tax credits staff are visiting 41 Children’s Centres in London, alongside some Children’s Centres in the West Midlands and Lancashire. These Centres had been identified by HMRC’s Knowledge and Analysis (KAI) area because of the ethnicity and deprivation levels in these areas.
There are two leaflets which are handed out to Children’s Centre clients. These are simplified leaflets and are aimed at awareness and signposting potential customers to the tax credits Helpline.
Denis Fitzgerald said that tax credits staff attending Children’s Centres are involved in formal and sit-in sessions with families and through one to ones with families and staff. HMRC try to ensure that the same staff visit each Centre. They normally visit one day each month. Staff have also accompanied Children’s Centre workers to customer’s homes on outreach visits.
Tax credits staff will mainly offer advice about:
Denis Fitzgerald said that tax credits staff do not fill in forms or calculate childcare costs for the customer. Staff have mobile telephones which customers can use to contact the Tax Credits Helpline. They have a proforma which customers can complete to report changes of circumstances and tax credits staff will provide a pre-paid envelope. He said that tax credits advisers have an escalation route in TCO to which they can refer complex cases.
Denis Fitzgerald said that this pilot has broken down barriers between tax credits staff and customers. To maintain this staff do not take records during sessions with customers as this could stifle discussion by appearing too formal. Victoria Todd expressed concerns that no record would be kept particularly if advice is being given.
KAI have commissioned evaluation of the visits to the Children Centre. The evaluation will look at both the pilot and control groups. The first results from the evaluation should be available in the winter. KAI have also commissioned independent evaluation which should start in January 2010. The results from this should be available in March 2010.
Denis Fitzgerald said that there are no plans ahead of the evaluation to extend coverage beyond the existing Children’s Centres although other organisations and the devolved Administrations have shown an interest in the work being done there. There is a commitment to reach out to the current Children’s Centres for a further year.
Katie Lane asked what the evaluation will look at. She also asked how the Children’s Centres compared with other outreach work and whether the evaluation would also look at this. Denis Fitzgerald said that the evaluation would look at the qualitative results. He said that the choice of Children’s Centres was random within the three identified areas. Denis said that any overlap with the DCSF work was coincidental.
Bernie O’Gorman asked whether the take up of tax credits would be part of the evaluation. Denis Fitzgerald said that it is difficult to comment on this at present. He said that HMRC would try to track whether this work had influenced customers, for example to see whether they claim faster or have fewer overpayments etc. Customer agreement will be needed to gather this information.
John Andrews said he had the impression that this was a key driver for contact with customers. He said that he had concerns about the two leaflets in that their accessibility could mean customers might refer to them to the exclusion of other information. John said that representatives would like to help HMRC look at the leaflets critically. He said that as they stood they had been simplified so much as to make them potentially misleading; LITRG points on them had been sent to HMRC some weeks ago and so far nothing seems to have changed. Denis Fitzgerald said that he would consider the points John had made.
Victoria Todd asked what HMRC’s position will be in the future if customers rely on the information given to them in these sessions or in the leaflets and are then overpaid. Tracy Gale asked Colin Stewart to raise this point with Paul Gerrard.
Victoria Todd asked whether the 4 week run-on letters have been sent, and said she didn’t appear to have received answers to some questions she had sent about the changes. David Skinner said he will forward this information to representatives as soon as possible.
Victoria also asked about progress on issues around sending out claim forms (for example for people to make protective claims). Some organisations have had difficulty obtaining claim forms on behalf of disabled claimants, and it is unclear what the actual position of HMRC is in relation to such requests. David Skinner confirmed that discussions were ongoing internally within HMRC to look at this and bring about a resolution.
Sean Griffin said he is taking forward work in the Individuals Customer Directorate seeking to resolve some of the contact issues that hamper effective intermediary support.
Tracy Gale said that she is leaving Benefits & Credits at the beginning of October. She said that she will be replaced by Tamsin Woodeson.
