Margaret Knights - HMRC (Chair)
Julie Bennett - HMRC
Justin Douglas - HMRC
Steve Haley - HMRC
Colin Henzell - HMRC
Pam Jones - HMRC
Simon Lidster - HMRC
Sue Manley - HMRC
Elaine O’Donnell - HMRC
Carolyn Parmeter - HMRC
Alison Wells - HMRC
Caroline Wood - HMRC (Minutes)
Matthew Brown - CIOT
Norman Green - BCS
Maria Hennessey - IREEN
Chris Hind - BCC
Linda Pullan - Payroll Alliance
Karen Thomson - IPP
Ken Voller - ICAEW
The Chair opened the meeting and apologised that papers had not been circulated ahead of the meeting which was due to unforeseen circumstances within the HMRC Team.
The minutes of the previous meeting on 24 May 2007 were discussed.
HMRC confirmed a representative’s query that the relaxation of penalties
for Large Employers as outlined at item 5 of the minutes would be adopted
for Small Employers when the Regs came into force in April 2011. HMRC advised
the meeting that the Regs for Small Employers had not yet been drafted as
the normal timetable was for these to be circulated approximately 18 months
ahead of being adopted in order to provide a period for comment
and review.
In respect of Item 9 (Local Practises), a representative asked if the Top Ten list of local practises could be circulated so that members could be notified.
AP 2.1.1 Chair to circulate list of Local Practises to Representatives
The Chair advised meeting that a representative had asked for a small
change to be made to the minutes from April 2007.
At item 3.1, regarding the submission by employers of all P45/P46s at the
end of the year rather than as they arose, it was not intended to
highlight a specific industry or suggest that there was a compliance issue.
The meeting agreed to amend the minutes.
AP 2.2.1 HMRC to amend previous minutes for meeting held 24 May 2007.
The outstanding action points from the previous meeting are:
Chair advised meeting that the name of the Group needed to fall in line with those for other HMRC Consultation Groups.
Chair suggested the name ‘MPPC & Carter PAYE Sub Group of Employers Consultation Forum’. Chair advised that when sub group was disbanded, any outstanding action points would be passed to Don Macarthur’s HMRC Employers Consultation Forum.HMRC advised meeting that from 2008 taxpayer information currently stored on 12 COP databases would be migrated to the National Insurance Recording System (NIRS) to form a single database to be known as ‘PAYE Service’. This would allow HMRC great flexibility in how it dealt with employees and employers.
Ahead of this migration, sampling of over 4 million records had taken place
to check that they would cut across to the new system successfully. The results
had been very positive and business rules had been identified which would
allow a large number of the exceptions on cutover to be successfully transferred
to the new system without further intervention. Where items would need manual
intervention, discussions were still taking place as to how this work would
be undertaken, whether by a specialist team in one office or spread over several
locations. However as these items were the result of an internal process,
there would be no impact on employers.
HMRC advised representatives that the cutover to one single database would
take place over two weeks ahead of the Go Live date in Spring 2008. There
would also be two trial periods ahead of Go Live.
HMRC said that during the two week cutover period there would be an embargo on any data which would otherwise be posted onto the COP system. This would mean that employers would have to stockpile data as the system would be unable to store information until the embargo ended. Once the new processing system ChRIS was in place this would no longer be an issue as ChRIS was capable of storing in year information.
Timings and details around the embargo had yet to be agreed but meeting agreed that suitable publicity needed to be issued well in advance to ensure employers were aware of the embargo. HMRC advised meeting that following the data migration, COP would no longer run in parallel with NIRS but assured representatives that although the issue was not within the remit of the Group, full testing of the new system would take place and contingency plans would be developed.
HMRC advised meeting that draft Regulations had been published for comment and would be discussed at a series of meetings.
AP 5.1 All to review Draft Regulations and return comments to HMRC by the end of July.
HMRC will forward details of new name and email address to send comments
to as the HMRC contact shown on draft circulated had now retired.
HMRC advised that the ‘snapshot’ identifying Large/Medium/Small
employers would be undertaken on 28 October 2007. Although the date had to
be formally agreed it was unlikely to change so representatives could share
the information with their members.
HMRC said that they hoped to also use the letter as an invitation to small employers to attend online filing talks which HMRC were holding nationwide. According to the figures, there were still nearly 300k small employers who had yet to register for online filing. To encourage small employers to register, HMRC planned to provide assistance throughout the 28 day period from setting up to activation.
Unfortunately the idea to have a tear off slip as part of the letter which employers could use to register their interest in attending said workshops had been deemed to be too expensive. HMRC advised meeting that any suggestions on how to target small employers and encourage online filing would be appreciated.
A member advised HMRC that communication should never be considered too expensive,
In the commercial world, a 1% return on mail shots was considered successful.
Suggestions put forward on how to use the snapshot letter as an incentive
included:
a. giving a contact telephone number for workshops
b. giving a web address for registering interest
c providing a ‘faxback’ facility
HMRC advised that several ideas had been considered to encourage the hardcore
of employers who showed no sign of wishing to file online. This included product
placement and targeting specialist publications.
HMRC said that comments from the meeting would be passed back to the colleagues
for consideration.
HMRC advised meeting that the new PAYE Service and Work Management functionality due to be introduced in Spring 2008 would be tested in a pilot environment from October 2007. There was a high level of confidence that the system worked perfectly but HMRC would test it in the pilot system by using real records to ensure that both the old (COP) & new (PAYE Service) systems gave the same result. Having the pilot meant that any problems could be identified ahead of the Go Live date.
HMRC said that they were trying to follow normal commercial procedures and ensure delivery of a robust system.
HMRC advised that a member of the MPPC Business Change Team would continue to attend meetings and would appreciate a steer from representatives as to what areas they would like covered at future meetings
AP 6.1 All to forward any questions/topics around the new
system for inclusion at future meetings
HMRC advised representatives that the internet site had been updated in June around Phase 3 and so far had not generated any media coverage. The published material had been thoroughly researched and emphasis had been placed on the fact that the PAYE rules were not changing and that the IT system would be tried and tested before delivery.
There had also been two major articles published internally around the move from the COP to the NIRS IT system and the pilot schemes planned for October 2007, both of which had generated a lot of feedback. There were also plans to update the Carter internet site shortly.
HMRC thanked the meeting for the feedback on the draft Employers Bulletin article which had been circulated ahead of the meeting. Unfortunately HMRC would not now be able to use the Ronnie Barker image. HMRC agreed to take back feedback from the meeting that the image was an eye catcher which grabbed readers’ attention and so its removal may reduce the number of readers of the article,
HMRC advised meeting that a video on in year filing was being produced and
would be included in the Budget edition CD ROM.
Podcasts were also been developed to spread the message to employers.
HMRC advised meeting that the information shown on the internet site had been challenged by an external source and an updated version would be circulated for comments. With respect to attendees, there would be one name given from each external organisation represented on the Group.
AP8.1.1 HMRC to circulate draft amended Terms of Reference and attendees for comment
One member said that they had also been targeted by the same external source who had used their own website to belittle the effectiveness of HMRC Consultation Groups such as this forum. The member said they did not want to respond to the comments as it would give the website credence. The matter would be kept under review and no action would be taken without prior discussion with the Group
HMRC were in the process of streamlining the various subgroups currently in existence. When the Taxpayers Data Standard Forum was wound up, any outstanding action points, which involved employers issues, would be subsumed into those for this Employers Sub group.
There were still issues around employers who used DOS application as they were unable to achieve the IR mark and so its use could not be made mandatory. The option to exempt DOS users was not feasible. HMRC advised representatives that they were not sure how this issue was to be taken forward but would need to speak to DOS users before the issue could be resolved.
HMRC advised that there was issue where an employee left in April ie CY, but due to the timing of the payroll run &/or finalising the employment records, the BACS transaction fell in March ie CY-1.
The only solution at present was for the relevant P45 to be submitted in a paper format. It was hoped that an IT solution would be in place by 2009.
HMRC circulated a list of planned Carter PAYE stationery changes as
requested by the Group but asked for the last bullet under Oct 08 changes
to P45s re Student Loan to be deleted.
HMRC asked for the list not to be circulated further as there were still
a
couple of issues to be resolved. These were around the use of old and new
forms being used in tandem and the possibility of printing P45s onto plain
paper. The latter was probably the only use for which plain paper was to
be adopted but representatives views were welcomed.
AP 8.5.1 All to consider HMRC adopting the use of plain paper
HMRC circulated graph showing in year online submissions (P45/P46s) to date.
HMRC advised that they were working on an In Year Desktop checker and would be asking for comments in due course. It would hopefully be ready by the end of July 2007.
A member advised HMRC that they had had feedback that the Customer
Services Helpline had not been very helpful in recent weeks. It was
agreed that future incidents would be logged and passed on for review.
Meeting agreed that any printed material would be double sided to
minimise waste.
The next meeting will be held on Tuesday 18th September 2007. Time and venue to be confirmed.
Chair asked Representatives to forward any suggestions for topics for discussion
on top of those already down on the agenda:
a) Data Migration
b) Changes to online services in October 2008
A. From November 2006 - The issue of the options and menus
available on the helpline is being considered by HMRC.
Closed. It was agreed that the action would be cleared by
correspondence, prior to the next meeting.
Post meeting note. For the New Employer Help Line(NESI) there
are only two options:
Press 1-To register a new employer
Press 2- Any other enquiry
For the Employer Helpline there are three options:
Press 1-For tax enquiries
Press 2-For National Insurance enquiries, sick pay etc
Press 3-For VAT registration
Enquiries under option 3 for VAT registration are minimal so in effect there
are only two options on each line. There are no plans to increase the number
of options.
1. From May 2007 - HMRC to consider the points raised about
payroll standards (item 3) and provide feedback to the sub-group.
Ongoing. HMRC are still reviewing position but decisions
likely to be reached by end of month. HMRC will report at the next meeting.
2. From May 2007 - HMRC to provide feedback to the sub-group
about the accuracy of automatic coding when there had been an in-year change
in taxable benefits.
Closed.It was agreed that the action would be cleared by
correspondence, prior to the next meeting
Post meeting note
Automatic coding will be correct where an in year change in taxable benefits
(P46car) has occurred whilst working for the same employer.
5. From May 2007 - HMRC to provide a specific member with
the dates for the employer recruitment road shows.
Post meeting note
There are currently no plans to change the P38A.
6. From May 2007 - HMRC to consider whether employers can
receive their security PIN by email to speed up the on line registration process
and provide feedback to the sub-group.
Ongoing. Awaiting response from HMRC Customer Contact who
need to make decision
7. From May 2007 - A member to provide the group with a
list of their trade contacts to promote employer recruitment at the working
together agents forum.
Ongoing
10. From May 2007 - HMRC to investigate the possibility
of the test in live service being introduced before April 2008 and subsequently
switched off.
Ongoing. HMRC
11. From May 2007 - HMRC to draft a shorter version of the
Guide to filing PAYE forms on line an paying electronically, which solely
relates to submitting in-year forms on line in time for the next sub-group
meeting.
Ongoing. HMRC - see AP2.2 below
AP2.1.1 Chair to circulate list of Local Practices to Representatives.
Closed. HMRC. Details in letter issued 10.08.07
AP 2.2.1 HMRC to amend previous minutes for meeting held
24 May 2007.
Closed. Minutes and HMRC web updated 10/07/08
Action point 5.1 All to review Draft Regulations and return
comments to HMRC by the end of July
All
Action point 6.1 All to forward any questions/topics around
the new system for inclusion at future meetings.
All
Action point 8.1.1 HMRC to circulate draft amended Terms
of Reference and attendees for comment
All
Action 8.5.1 All to consider HMRC adopting the use of plain
paper.
All
