Chris Edge (CE) - HMRC
Dylan Montell (DM) - HMRC
Martin Dwyer (MD) - HMRC
Keith Williams (KW) - HMRC
Chris Bienkowski (CB) - HMRC
Nick Kelly (NK) - HMRC
Donald Carvel (DC) - HMRC
Jim Boyd (JB) - BDO Stoy Hayward
Neil Grant (NG) - Coutts and Co
Ian Haughton (IH) - Grant Thornton
Robin Summers (RS) - Association of Taxation Technicians
Catherine Shepherd (CS) - PWC
KW welcomed everyone to the meeting and members introduced themselves.
AP1 – CE to ask someone from TAA to attend the next meeting to cover Veltemar. CE had been unable to arrange this for today and asked members to confirm this is still an issue and provide details of what they would like to cover.
AP2 – Members to let Bill Martin know of any problems with penalty charging in CPTT. – None received
DC advised his role in Charities Assets and Residence (CAR) was management responsibility for technical advisors; he was not a technical advisor himself. He may therefore have to take issues away if members raised any additional technical questions. He advised that HMRC were planning to replace the IR20 guidance and consultation would start later in the year. DC advised that he had been asked to attend to respond to some questions raised by John Foxon HSBC.
| Question | Answer |
|---|---|
| JF What questions will HMRC ask to validate continuing
non domicile status? How long can someone be in the UK before becoming UK domiciled? |
This really depends upon the facts of each case and intention upon arrival plays a large part. The rules for inheritance tax are 17/20 years. |
| JB How vigorously will HMRC challenge someone’s intentions? | The longer the individual stays beyond their original intentions the less credible these stated intentions are. |
| RS If someone comes into the UK and intends to stay for three years but then gets promoted and stays longer, the intentions will have changed. | Again each case will be looked at on its own merits. |
| MD Do HMRC consider whether there is any relationship to what they are told with what the customer may tell the Home Office? | Individuals may say different things to different agencies and this would be a factor when considering the credibility of the claim. |
| JF What criteria is used to challenge non domicile status | HMRC has right to challenge depending upon the credibility of info. - place of birth - date res in UK - country of origin amongst others. |
| JF What is HMRC policy where a customer fails to claim non domicile on the SA return? | HMRC cannot refuse a claim because the box has not been ticked on the return, but this factor will be used and taken into account with everything else. |
| RS Has HMRC given any thought to the number of people who could claim non domicile status? | This could be huge – but we do not know how many. |
| JF Can Policy agree the effective date of change of status from domicile to non domicile? | This is difficult as someone’s sudden change of circumstances
doesn’t always happen on a particular day or tax year.
A customer cannot change non UK domicile if they have not at any point left the UK. They need to become resident somewhere else and intend to make a permanent home there. This may be difficult to ascertain. |
KW updated members on how CPTT were looking to develop further specialisation within its customer base.
The background is that CPTT was set up over five years ago and are responsible for over 100,000 individuals:
The majority of its customers need specialist skills to process the SA return and deal with any compliance risks associated with that return.
For last five years CPTT work has been dealt with in ten locations, with the appropriate office being determined by the personal or employers address. CPTT is looking critically to determine whether there is a better way in handling the tax affairs of its various customers. They have considered whether this could be:
by sectors (type of employment, profession etc)
Having the tax affairs of specific groups of individuals dealt with by a particular team could improve the understanding of those customers needs and improve the approach in addressing those needs.
This is not all a new idea as CPTT already has some specialisms in Expats and Underwriters. They are currently looking at centralising the handling of the tax affairs of the following sectors:
The reason for the above is not that they are the highest risk cases but because they are groups that have specific issues and that are easy to identify.
Work is underway to identify other groups of customers where the tax affairs could be centralised in a particular team, and CPTT are keen to hear people’s thoughts on this over the coming weeks and months.
The representatives were supportive of the proposed approach and would feed in ideas.
JB felt that there was evidence that HMRC do not understand issues affecting non domicile settlers of non resident trusts. JB will provide evidence to CB to support this.
DM advised that the role of the Lead Technicians was:
The third primary role is to promote constructive and positive exchanges with our customers both inside and outside of the Department. They will ensure that CPTT is effectively represented and engaged within the Department and co-operate with all colleagues to ensure a reduction in the tax gap. Our Lead National Technicians have existing links with key partners such as SCI, KAI, AAG, CAR, Local Compliance, Large Partnership Units, Stamp Duty Land Tax and LBS. CPTT also has links with accountancy and other professional bodies which National Technicians liaise with to better enable our customers to pay the correct amount of tax at the right time.
The National Technicians will provide technical and tactical support in existing casework where necessary but will also be responsible for identifying and researching possible areas of risk in advance of the development of proposals and ideas to be put before the Risk Board for consideration.
CPTT currently has 3 Lead Technicians: Chris Bienkowski, Martin Dwyer and Nick Kelly all are present and would give an overview of their roles and responsibilities. A fourth Lead Technician on Business issues and other topics was to be appointed shortly.
CB introduced himself and advised his main areas of responsibility are:
CB advised he had one deputy national technician (Drew Donaldson) and co-ordinators for each area in each team.
NK introduced himself and advised his main area of responsibility was avoidance issues. NK also advised he was responsible for actively supporting those teams which are involved in the high level argument providing them with advice, tactical guidance and support to litigation.
MD introduced himself and advised his team took the lead in the following subjects:
MD plays a lead role in the Joint Forum on Expatriate Tax & NIC on behalf of CPTT and meets regularly with the Big 4 firms individually to discuss areas of difficulty and explore possible solutions. ie Discovery, Culpability, Day Counting, Risk Assessment.
The contact details for the Lead National Technicians are:
| Name | Phone | Address |
|---|---|---|
| Chris Bienkowski |
01355 275604 | Complex Personal Return Team Centre 1 Queensway House Stewartfield Way Peel Park East Kilbride Scotland G79 1AA |
| Nick Kelly |
02392 858226 | Complex Personal Return Team East Hants and Wight Wingfield House 316 Commercial Road Portsmouth PO1 4TF |
| Martin Dwyer |
0161 261 3557 | Complex Personal Tax Teams 4th Floor Trinity Bridge House 2 Dearmans Place Salford M3 5BS |
KW reminded members to let CE have any suggested agenda items for our next meeting by 15 September 2008. This would be on Thursday 23 October in Euston Tower.
The meeting closed at 13.30.
