Minutes of Agent and Adviser Steering Group

Meeting 20 July 2006

Attendees

Dave Hartnett - Chair

Representative Bodies:

Derek Allen - ICAS
Garry Mackley - FSB
Chas Roy-Chowdury - ACCA
Andrew Hubbard - CIOT
John Kimmer - ATT
Graeme Ross - KPMG
Paul Aplin - ICAEW

HMRC:

Dave Carr - Agent & Adviser Unit
Tony Kelly - Agent & Adviser Unit
Philippa Staples - Agent & Adviser Unit & Minutes
Tamsin Woodeson - Enforcement & Compliance Operations
Roger Halson - Small & Medium Enterprises & Employers
Sally Littlejohns - Large Business Service

Welcome

  1. Dave Hartnett welcomed everyone to the inaugural meeting of the Steering Group. He said:
  • The group presented a unique opportunity to build on existing relationships between HMRC and the agent/adviser profession, look at more radical and strategic approaches and develop a climate of trust for the future.
  • HMRC recognises that agents and tax advisers play a crucial role in the successful administration of the tax system and in the delivery of improved service to the taxpayer.
  • The ICAEW seminars throughout the country had given HMRC a real insight into the issues that trouble agents, the responses to which had been published in the July edition of Taxline.

Ground Rules

  1. It was accepted that the group should be:
  • Open and honest, recognising the need to be transparent about the issues considered and the work it is undertaking;
  • Representative of all interested parties and alive to different views;
  • Supportive to changes in membership to bring in those different views.

Drivers for Change

  1. HMRC set out its key drivers.
  2. [presentation attached outlining HMRC’s drivers for change].

Round table discussion

  1. The idea of a relationship manager is a good one and we can explore this in more depth.

    Action: Agent & Adviser Unit to explore the idea of a Client Relationship Manager.
  2. HMRC need to improve their understanding of the role of agents and their processes and as a result could deploy resources more effectively. For example agent procedures on client checks, money-laundering provisions etc could better inform what HMRC do.
  3. HMRC must try to avoid creating antagonistic situations e.g. Carter and the change of filing dates, and to create an atmosphere of co-operation: confidence would automatically follow.
  4. The relationship between agents/advisers and HMRC has deteriorated, particularly for smaller firms. They can no longer get answers to their questions and both sides waste time trying to resolve issues, some of which are relatively low level.
  5. There is a lack of continuity with the service from Contact Centres and a perception the general level of competence is not good.
  6. The level of de-skilling in some areas is worrying and staff do not have the level of competence required to do the job. Status was given as an example of where staff were making decisions and using powers that they are not entitled to use or capable of applying.
  7. Both sides agreed the need to work together to improve the level of service and look at ways in which HMRC could provide more dedicated and consistent help for agents and advisers.
  8. There are commercial drivers for agents and they must be able to sell the benefits to their clients for this to be successful.
  9. There was a lack of understanding of the legislation by HMRC operatives, particularly on the VAT side, and a feeling that agents could not approach staff with the right level of technical expertise to deal with more complex issues. The CPR teams were identified as a good example of working well with agents. They had a good level of technical knowledge and had built up good working relationships.
  10. There was a view that there are real problems with the performance standards that HMRC sets for its staff.
  11. Poor HMRC information systems and technology directly linked to many of the difficulties encountered by agents.
  12. Recognising the scope, range and volume of agent questions to HMRC will help unpack the issues and provide some direction for how the work on improving the service needs to progress.

    Action: Rep bodies to monitor over, say, a week and report back on the range and volume of issues at the next meeting

    Action: PS to invite Nick Lodge, Director of Customer Contact to the next meeting to discuss Contact Centres and service to agents.
  13. Using agent standards and performance, for example gold, silver and bronze standards, to assess overall risk may have benefits for HMRC and for agents in client marketing. Assessing and assuring any standards would provide a base for this approach, but there is considerable work to do and the group agreed to take this away for some initial consideration.

    Action: The group will give initial consideration to the benefits for agents and clients of agent standards and how this might be developed. To report back at the next meeting.
  14. Good experiences build good relationships. Healthy debates about technical issues and policy issues were seen as a good thing, and publicity and press coverage is part of that. However, unfair criticism and ‘getting personal’ created tensions and was undermining the process.
  15. HMRC staff gaining an understanding of what agents do, their processes (for example the role of practice assurance visits), duty of care, judgements they make and commercial pressures would help HMRC in its dealings with agents. The HMRC Autumn conferences would be an opportunity for an external speak to explain to staff what agents do so that we can start to get a better understanding of the pre-return period. Also HMRC will use its internal newsletter to publicise this
  16. The Professional Bodies are due to redraft the Professional Standards Tax Conduct document. This would be a good opportunity for both sides to work together to develop a strategy for HMRC.
  17. Working Together is working well in some areas, but was seen to be not so successful in others. The role of this steering group is to look at strategic issues. We need to be careful to avoid duplication and as work develops the group will review the position.
  18. Understanding what HMRC and agents want to achieve out of this relationship, a vision, would help inform the way that work develops.

    Action: Tony Kelly and Graeme Ross to work together to produce a shared vision for the next meeting.

Terms of Reference

  1. Draft terms of reference for the steering group were distributed for comment.

    Action: Members to provide comments to Philippa Staples by end of August, so that an updated draft is available for the next meeting
    Minutes.
  2. Minutes would be circulated in draft within 48 hours and finalised within a week. They would be published on the HMRC Internet.

Next Meeting

  1. The next meeting will be arranged for end of September 2006.

Issues for next meeting

  1. An initial paper on identification of agents (produced by HMRC)
  2. An initial paper on service improvements (produced by HMRC)
  3. A draft shared Vision
  4. Agreement of Terms of Reference
  5. Nick Lodge – Director of Contact Centres, dedicated service to Agents