Simon Sweetman (SSw) (FSB)
Paul Aplin (PA) (ICAEW)
Brian Keegan (BK) (ICAI)
Colin Lamb, (CL) (ICAS) representing Derek Allen
Andrew Hubbard (AH) (CIOT)
Bob Davies (BD) (IIT)
Brian Palmer (BP) (AAT)
John Kimmer (JK) (ATT)
Dave Hartnett (DH)(Chair)
Stephen Banyard (SB)
Simon Smith ( SS)
Pete Robson (PR), representing Linda Whewell (RIS)
Matt Blake (MB)
Simon Woodside (SW)
Colin Kirk (CK)
Mark Young (MY)
Geoff Allen (GA)
Kim Nicholas (KN)
Lynn Sainsbury (LS)(minutes)
Derek Allen (ICAS)
Suzanne West
Mavis Sargent (ACCA)
Linda Whewell
David Halsey, Tony Verran and David Hinstridge– HMRC Tribunal reform
Jon Sherman – HMRC Tax Simplification
Dave Hartnett welcomed everyone to the meeting and as there were new attendees there was a round the table introduction.
The minutes from the meeting on 6 July had been previously circulated and
were agreed.
Action points arising – all were cleared as follows:
Guest speakers from the Tribunal reform Team gave an update on the change to existing tax tribunals from April 2009. The impartial internal review aims to improve the way HMRC deals with disputes and is being trialled in 2008. HMRC want to offer a new joined up process and as such want to:
It was agreed that the Compliance Reform Forum (CRF) needs to feed into this review.
It was agreed in discussion that there was a need to start the review process before the formal appeal stage. DH agreed there was a need to separate out the issues into:
It was agreed that this subject should be an ongoing discussion and included at the next meeting. The ConDoc is available.
AP – Tax Tribunal Reform Team to be invited to the next Steering Group meeting
Guest speaker was Jon Sherman who discussed the Pre Budget Report announcement of 23 simplification measures. There is commitment to:
A round the table discussion identified forms used but their purpose in the current tax environment wasn’t fully understood and questions needed to be asked about their continued use. Agents suggested that WT Steering Group would be best placed to discuss, but it was argued that they should also take the opportunity within this forum. There were clear and strong signals from the Chancellor that he wants simplification to work, so we need to work together on this positive move forward.
DH asked for help to take this forward from the ‘engine room’ of the tax system.
All ideas to be forwarded to Jon Sherman
CK gave an update on Vat registration.
Updates recently announced at the JVCC. Action plans are now in place to address the problems identified. These include:
Target is for 70 per cent of applications to be processed at the first risk check within 14 days by January 2008 and this is currently on track.
Discussion followed with an identified particular issue where the application was still outstanding since March. There was disappointment that a letter to the Chairman had been unanswered. DH agreed to take this away and ensure a response was received.
AP DH to make sure this case is fully looked at and a response issued.
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Operationally the turnaround time in CAAT is 5 days. Problems are with those
sent to other offices, which cause delays when they then have to be forwarded
to the CAAT.
CK presented his paper which identified:
This was opened up for discussion and views. BP agreed that input was needed
and agreed to be involved. He also suggested Jane Moore as someone to engage
with.
BK supported the idea that we needed to have trust with the agent community
Discussion followed about the legal position and the reasons behind the requirement for agents to be authorised. It was agreed that client confidentiality was paramount, but if the process could be changed to update the system it could solve a lot of problems.
DH expressed the view that there were inherent risks that we faced in this given the tax confidentiality issues.
The pilot is now up and running and we are evaluating on an ongoing basis. We are now looking at taking forward to increase the agent numbers involved in an attempt to increase take-up of the service. SB will be visiting the Edinburgh AAM and is looking at increasing vision of the AAM by suggesting they visit participating agents so they can ‘put a face to the name’; sell the idea. There is also the possibility of introducing a 3rd pilot site. It was agreed that the role is a vital way forward.
The emerging report on the evaluation has been finalised and will be presented to the WT Steering Group on 5 December. An outcome of the report is that the findings don’t appear to match with agents’ comments. Customer Contact are looking at specific issues that have been identified, with more work being carried out on callbacks.
The Tax Agents and Advisers Team would be publicising ‘How to contact us’ within the next week or so, as one of the major challenges was often finding the right contact telephone numbers.
DH enquired if now agents were back in the normal system was there any degeneration in the service being provided. CK to find out
AP CK to establish service level received now the agent pilot is no longer operating.
SS updated on:
Post
It was acknowledged that new ways of working had caused an initial deterioration in service but once embedded would show an improvement. This is already being demonstrated by the results as follows:
August there was 1.2 million pieces of post awaiting action; October this was down to under 700,000.
There are still hotspots, with Leicester in particular being identified, but improvements are being made. Those sites working below target have recovery plans in place. A recent dispute with the union is nearly resolved and in the interim staff have been able to work overtime in order to clear backlogs.
Agent representatives recently visited the Portsmouth office to see first hand the post handling process.
A new IT system being introduced will allow segmentation of post.
Discussions followed on specific examples of where post had been separated
thereby leading to delays JK related to the meeting the outcome of the recent
visit by members of the WTSG to the LPO at Portsmouth where they had been
able to see first hand how the LEAN processing system works. Their conclusion
was that the system had been designed primarily with HMRC in mind and although
this enabled HMRC to deal efficiently with approximately 90 per cent of the
incoming post there are problems in relation to the other 10 per cent which
needs to be dealt with differently. This 10 per cent includes the more complex
or 'out of the ordinary' post for which a different system could be appropriate.
He cited examples of where the rigorous adherence to the LEAN processes had
caused problems. The type of case involved could include the first letter
written to HMRC, with the 64-8, the current year SA Return, a corrected Return
for the previous year and computations of additional liabilities for the previous
four years with a cheque to cover the liability due at that time. This sort
of submission was not that common, but on each time one was submitted the
package had been split up and not dealt with in chronological order such that
there appeared to be an overpayment because only the current year’s
Return had been processed with all the other years lying in the post somewhere.
DH said the suggestion being made was known as 'whole case working', but their
advice, from experts outside the department, was that the LEAN process was
the most efficient. JK responded by saying that as each case like this had
gone wrong, it seemed the position should be considered again. After discussion,
it was agreed that the position with regard to the exceptions should be reconsidered.
SS confirmed that there was no unopened post being cold stored; all incoming
post was opened at point of receipt. It was agreed this message needs to be
relayed. It was suggested that there needs to be a consistency of message
across HMRC, as there were still messages stating there were piles of post
sitting unopened.
A request was made that agents refrain from writing ‘polite’ letters that have no purpose to them, as it adds to the post burden.
A discussion around possible email usage. Within HMRC there were concerns that the HMRC email system would be unable to cope with the volume and it wasn’t prepared to take forward unless sure the system could withstand this and was extremely robust. There were also concerns around confidentiality that needed to be addressed. However SB added that running an email pilot was on our agenda, but further work was required before this could become a reality.
Agents were pleased to hear the service updates but suggested these issues were best placed within the WT Steering Group. There is a need to talk at an early stage to avoid issues developing and to prevent the impressions of service being negative rather than positive. This point was addressed by DH in AOB.
MY updated on
Sharing workflow processes
MY thanked the agents for their help with this and confirmed there were 12 firms involved in the sample. Work is ongoing with the series of visits, which should be completed by the end of December, to volunteer agents looking at their pre return processes. There are 24 tax risks identified and 8-10 of these are discussed at each visit. All 24 will be covered by the end of the sample visits.
Feedback received so far is positive, with agents valuing the experience. MY would like confirmation from the representative bodies that this is a true reflection and any further feedback from the professional bodies that they had received directly from the participants would be welcome.
MY wants to bring the findings to both the Steering Group and the CRF with a view to identifying ways to achieve the aims.
GA presented his paper on improving agent behaviour and performance. He had already received some comment and feedback from agents following circulation of the paper prior to the meeting, and these are being taken on board and considered.
GA went through the issues in his paper and asked for comments from the steering group on the following para references:
There were discussions following this presentation including:
AP Andrew Hubbard to produce, in consultation with other agents, a paper on HMRC behaviour.
DH returned to his previous comments made about how HMRC takes forward the changes discussed at these meetings. He wanted to know how by working together we could ensure HMRC delivers ongoing improvement and change. DH requested the Tax Agents and Advisers Team produce, in consultation with agents, a paper including performance metrics that we could share for the next meeting.
AP CK to produce a paper on whether HMRC is effectively delivering the improvements and change identified at Steering Group and other meetings.
Dates of next year’s meetings confirmed as: 18 February, 16 June, 16 September
This was John Kimmer’s last meeting representing ATT and DH thanked him on behalf of the group for his hard work and commitment over the years. He had been fearless in telling HMRC what he thought and would be missed by the group. The groups’ good wishes were relayed. JK’s replacement in the group would be Andrew Meeson
Tax Tribunal Reform Team to be invited to the next Steering Group meeting. LS to issue invite.
DH to take forward the identified case specific complaint to make sure a response is sent
CK to establish service level received now agents are no longer part of the telephone pilot.
Andrew Hubbard to produce, in consultation with other agents, a paper on HMRC behaviour
CK to produce a paper on whether HMRC is effectively delivering the improvements and change identified at Steering Group and other meetings.
The meeting closed at 11.56
