Minutes of Agent and Adviser Steering Group

Meeting 6 July 2007

Attendees

Dave Hartnett - Chair (Business Customer Unit)

Agent representatives:

Brian Palmer (ATT)
Mavis Sargent (ACCA)
John Kimmer (ATT)
Simon Sweetman (FSB)
Paul Aplin (ICAEW)
Brian Keegan (ICAI)
Graeme Ross (KPMG)
Bob Crawford, (ICAS) representing Derek Allen (ICAS) and Andrew Hubbard (CIOT)

HMRC representatives:

Dave Hartnett (Chair)
Stephen Banyard
Simon Smith
Linda Whewell
Roger Bath
Colin Kirk
Mark Young
Geoff Allen
Tim Salt
Kim Nicholas
Lynn Sainsbury (minutes)
Lisa Wise – guest speaker

Apologies:

Derek Allen (ICAS)
Bob Davies (IIT)
Andrew Hubbard (CIOT)
Suzanne West (HMRC)
Theresa Middleton (HMRC)

1. Welcome & introductions

Dave Hartnett (DH) welcomed those new to the Tax Agents and Advisers Steering Group (TAASG) meeting.

2. Action Point updates from the last meeting

1. Dave Hartnett asked the HMRC Agent Team to investigate the issue of Agents who had called the Contact Centre being asked to write in with their enquiry. Chris Buckels to seek clarification on the telephone enquiry service available and report back to Dave as soon as possible. - Cleared

2. Agent reps to further consider options/possibilities for a variety of firms to take place in CRM trials and notify Suzanne West. – Agenda item

3. Agent reps to supply comments for inclusion in the ‘Benefits to agents’ field of the Shared Vision table to Chris Buckels. – In progress

4. Nigel Packham and Linda Whewell to consider an alternative language/term to ‘interventions’, to be used for compliance activities.- Cleared, confirmed by Linda Whewell to be “Compliance Checks”

5. Agents team to organise next meeting agenda to include an update on poor performing agents and the role of the TA&ASG in international consultations.

Agenda item with guest speaker Lisa Wise

6. Chris Buckels to arrange early July meeting of the TA&ASG.- Cleared

3. Service improvement

Colin Kirk (CK) led on this previously distributed paper. He apologised for the initial delay in getting the papers out, but gave an update on where we were with the Agent Account Manager (AAM) pilot. He pointed out the need to amend the paper slightly from its present form and identified.

  • The timescale proposed – 9 months to run the pilot but stressed ongoing evaluation throughout the pilot, with internal meetings every 4-6 weeks, updating the TAASG at each meeting
  • Client specific enquiries issue still needs to be addressed and revisited, ensuring we solve correctly

Agreed the pilot delivery should be dynamic

Comments and views were invited

  • Initial disappointment felt by agents’ representatives when they read the paper abated following pre-meeting discussions with CK. There was a feeling the pilot wasn’t tackling what was originally requested or needed by agents. The key requirement identified was the need for someone to act as concierge, to ‘open the brick wall’, not only to point them in the right place to find the information they needed but also somebody to go to when all other avenues within HMRC had been tried repeatedly and failed.
  • There was agreement that, following amendments, there was positivity about taking forward.
  • It was agreed that agents’ representatives would be involved in the evaluation

DH considered this to be an important topic that needs to be brought back to each meeting.

AP 1 – AAM pilot to be included in the next agenda

DH was glad Simon Sweetman (SS) represented the small business – important that those delivering processes shouldn’t be strangers to what is happening

4. Demonstrating improvements in relationships and Working Together

Mark Young (MY) and Tim Salt (TS) gave updates on current activity within their own areas.

1. Pre return assurance

MY stated that HMRC were unsighted on agents’ actions and processes between the time their client hands them their business records and the ultimate calculation of the figures that are entered on the completed Tax Return. There is an identified need for HMRC to understand more fully the checks carried out.

  • Following back office work the highest 16 error risk areas in direct tax were identified – indirect tax research still ongoing
  • Workshops gave a steer on how to take forward
  • Volunteer agents were found who have allowed MY and his colleague to attend their offices to fact find for HMRC. Following this there will be a step-by-step look at how this can be taken forward. There will be feedback at the next meeting
  • Agreement that it would be good to make public the top 16 error risk areas. DH thought this would add to the transparency of our work and the external SG members believed that it would help the Rep Bodies to focus their members on common errors at an early stage.

AP2. MY to publicise top errors and to provide feedback findings at next meeting

Incentives for agents volunteering were opportunities to sit with HMRC to get an understanding on HMRC’s processes to identify errors.

MY asked for his thanks to be passed to the volunteers.

This was opened up to the floor with the following being raised:

  • Interaction needs to be clear on each others understanding of tax risks
  • HMRC should go public on what the known risk areas are. Linda Whewell (LW) agreed and stated that HMRC is sharing information on the Internet- identifying areas (trade sectors) we would be looking at over the next 18 months
  • Discussion around agents’ obligation to check figures produced by clients. MY said this is something they are looking at and will feed back.
  • DH stated HMRC would be committed to publishing risks.
  • Agents’ reps agreed to offer full support – nothing to lose; sooner found, sooner dealt with.

2. Working Together

TS gave an update on how the National Working Together team are working to revitalise the WT network to get back to where they were prior to HMRC formation when the natural home was lost. The team’s priorities were discussed.

TS also covered the work on partnership marketing, WT sub groups, and close working with the Carter team. LW confirmed that Risk and Intelligence Services (RIS) are using the WT structure to get measure out around new compliance checks
Points raised by agents’ reps were

  • The last 3 WT compliance sub group meetings were cancelled – Pete Robson, (RIS) has now taken over the Chair for the group and is meeting with TS on 6th July to discuss arrangements to ensure future meetings go ahead. TS confirmed the planned meeting for July would go ahead.
  • SS said that his local WT group had in the past been advised that there was no funding for a planned workshop. TS said that HMRC are committed to improving the relationship with agents. Any requests for funding for specific workshops would be considered on a case by case basis. Discussions around concerns expressed about whether AAM and local WT could co-exist. JK and BP clearly argued that local WT delivered benefits that would be unaffected by the success of the AAM role.

5. Agents performance

Geoff Allen (GA) led on this and stressed the sensitivity around the issues raised in the paper. He invited comments and views from agents’ reps.

  • Consultation was encapsulating something being already taken forward
  • Will identify areas of taxation where small agents get into difficulty and out of their depth – GA agreed this was something HMRC want to explore in more detail
  • What the magnitude of the problem is? No specific data to put the issue into context but it was clear that HMRC needed, as a very minimum, to update its guidance so the work was important.
  • Agents’ representative bodies don’t condone poor agents but could be handling issues. DH agreed this was an important point and appreciated tax agents do their best for clients and the client relationship shouldn’t be compromised. There is a need to bring back an understanding on what is unacceptable, poor behaviour. GA agreed and suggested a half-day workshop to establish a shared understanding of what constitutes poor agent behaviour.

AP3. GA to send all TAASG his email address and agents to respond with names of potential attendees.

  • The difference between represented and unrepresented agents – need to make sure end result action is the same if HMRC has concerns about their performance. DH confirmed ICAEW took on the role of supporting agents who got into administrative difficulties.

6. OECD review

Lisa Wise attended on behalf of Chris Davidson as guest speaker and gave a presentation on the work being carried out on consultations in risk management across the participating continents. She pointed attendees to the web site http://www.oecd.org for further information. Points raised by agents’ reps were

  • Acceptable tax avoidance – dislike of the terminology. DH explained the Seoul declaration and the ‘terms of art’ used.
  • Tax competition between countries – this isn’t within the study remit of OECD.

7. AOB

1. Concerns around post handling delays with up to 3 ½ months being quoted in some areas. Simon Smith (SS) agreed that the situation wasn’t where we want at the moment but no one should be waiting that long. He explained resource problems and measures being taken to rectify. He agreed to take away and review the specific examples raised.

AP4. SS to investigate and report back at the next meeting

2. Rationalisation of TAASG – concerns that although the group should overarch everything, there were points coming out initially from Compliance Reform Forum (CRF) rather than TAASG. Concerns also that there was duplication in effort for rep bodies where the same information is being reported back from various events. Stephen Banyard (SB) explained the relationship and hierarchy with agents:

  • TAASG is the parent group
  • WT deals with day to day issues on the ground and fosters local relationships
  • CRF is the new regime for compliance

Around these are various other groups.

3. Policy review of links with Large Business. CK explained there is a consultation document on ‘Giving certainty to business through clearance and advance agreements’. This consultation document seeks views on a new process for clearances and advance agreements for large business. HMRC welcomes views on these proposals, which take forward the key themes of giving increased and earlier certainty to business, moving closer to real-time working and speedier resolution of issues looking at the relationship and this can be found on the HMRC website. Issue date of consultation: 20 June 2007. Date of response: 12 September 2007.

4. CK raised the Artic case status– reminder given on the sensitivity of this case. HMRC’s line is “The judgement in the Artic case is awaited. We clearly can’t discuss details either of this or any other individual cases. But we are keen to make sure we have the right information available to our customers as soon as possible after the House of Lords judgement. Is there material which you would particularly like us to cover in this guidance?” All responses to go directly to CK who will pass to Charities Assets and Residence team(CAR).

AP5. All agents to report directly to CK what they want included in guidance issued by HMRC

Summary of Action Points

AP 1 – Agent Account Manager pilot to be included in the next agenda
AP2 - Mark Young to feedback findings of the pre return assurance work carried out with volunteer agents at next meeting
AP3. GA to send all TAASG his email address and agents to respond with names of representative attendees at a workshop to establish a shared understanding of what is poor behaviour.
AP4. Simon Smith to investigate post handling delays and report back at the next meeting
AP5. All agents to report directly to Colin Kirk what they want included in guidance issued by HMRC in order to avoid a repetition of the Arctic case.

Date of next meeting to be confirmed.