Tribunals Reform Stakeholder Group Meeting

Date: 19 March 2009

Time: 2.00 to 4.30pm

HMRC:

David Hinstridge
David Halsey
Tony Verran
Eileen Rafferty
Jennie Vaughan
Rose Egan
Marcia Martin
Mumtaz Patel

Tribunals Service (TS)

Bryan Pay

Agent Representatives:

Robert Maas IIT/ICAEW
Ron Downhill Law Society
Robin Williamson LITRG
Bianca Marsden ICAS
Jeremy Woolf CIOT

Apologies

Jane Moore ICAEW
Peter Jennings ACCA
John Hughes HMRC
Penny Hamilton CIOT
Derek Allen ICAS

1. Welcome and Introductions

1.1. HMRC welcomed everyone to the meeting and introductions were made.

2. Minutes and action points from previous meeting

2.1. The minutes from the meeting held on 6 January 2009 were agreed.

2.2. The outstanding action points from the meeting were covered.

2.2.1. It was agreed AP: 1 & 2 had been completed.

2.2.2. AP3 – Helen Latham had sent Derek Allen an e-mail which provided clarification regarding ‘hardship’. HMRC asked Agents reps to let them know of any further issues.

3. Learning

3.1. HMRC had circulated the first part of the ‘review officer guided learning unit (GLU)’ to agent reps in advance of the TRSG meeting. HMRC mentioned they would take Derek Allen’s comments on board and if anyone else had any other comments to e-mail Mumtaz Patel. In particular (as pointed out by Derek Allen) the implication that the reviewing officers should discuss the case with the decision maker will be clarified. HMRC agrees that the independence of the reviewer could be damaged by routine contact with the decision maker. When the reviewing officer needs to contact the decision maker to clarify something they should explain this to the customer, and customers should have the same scope to put their case to reviewers.

3.2. HMRC explained the second part of the GLU will be published internally at the end of March. Both parts of the review officer GLU will then be merged into one document and published on the HMRC internet site in April (possibly after Easter). HMRC would like to circulate the second part of the review officer GLU, to agent reps to review before it’s published on the internet.

AP1: HMRC to circulate the second part of the review officer GLU to agent reps.

3.3. Agent reps expressed concerns about short timescales for reviewing documents. HMRC explained they could defer publication of the product on the internet, to incorporate comments from agent reps into the final product.
3.4. Agent reps requested to have all products identical on the intranet and internet. HMRC confirmed both products would be identical however some guidance may be restricted due to exemptions in the Freedom of Information Act.
3.5. HMRC agreed to update the GLU to take account of any agent rep comments and to ensure that material changes are brought to the attention of those in HMRC who have already done the training.

4. Paper Hearing Products

4.1. HMRC explained the suggestions and comments agent reps had made, regarding the paper hearing products circulated at the previous meeting, had been incorporated into the final version.

4.2. HMRC asked for comments regarding SA634 form and SA633 letter which were circulated in advance of the TRSG meeting.

4.2.1. Agent reps expressed concerns about the level of knowledge of unrepresented customers.

4.2.2. HMRC confirmed explanation of terms were included in the guidance notes.

4.2.3. Agent reps suggested moving the main bullet points to the top of the letter as a summary.

4.2.4. Agent reps recommended using numbering instead of bullet points.

4.2.5. Agent reps suggested using the word ‘or’ after each bullet point to clarify alternatives.

4.2.6. Agent reps thought the size of the box for ‘why I do not accept HMRC’s view’ was inadequate in SA634 and suggested using the whole page.

4.3. HMRC clarified SA633 only applied to appeals concerning late filing.

4.4. HMRC mentioned it was not possible to incorporate agent reps comments straight away as the version circulated had been launched internally. There will therefore be some delays to changing the letter until it’s next updated. HMRC said they will arrange for agent reps comments to be incorporated ASAP however the old version will be issued to customers before the amended version.

4.5. HMRC thanked agents for their comments and said they would incorporate the comments into the final versions.

4.6. Agent reps queried if there was any guidance explaining the term ‘reasonable excuse’. HMRC said the ‘new penalties project’ were planning to produce centralised guidance after their current consultation period. HMRC pointed out that guidance notes covering ‘reasonable excuse’ are issued with the penalty. Agent reps requested to see a copy of the guidance notes. HMRC explained it was difficult to obtain copies of the guidance notes as they are only issued automatically with the penalty.

4.7. HMRC asked for comments regarding the Self Assessment Manual (SAM) review officer’s guide. Agent reps queried when a customer would request a review. HMRC explained it would apply when a taxpayer simultaneously submits a review request and appeal.

4.8. HMRC circulated copies of SA636 & SA640 and asked for comments.

4.8.1. Agent reps expressed concerns about a contact centre number being used as the telephone number instead of the review officer’s direct dial. HMRC explained they there was a limit to how much the project could do but they would try very hard, to see if was possible to include the review officer’s direct dial number.

AP2: HMRC to find out if it’s possible to include the review officers direct dial number in SA640.

AP2A: HMRC to circulate electronic version of SA636 and SA640 for comments

4.9. HMRC suggested arranging consultation between the Londonderry office and LITRG, to make the letters simpler i.e. in plain English and to help focus in mind of the customer.

5. Guidance

5.1. HMRC explained the Appeals, Reviews & Tribunals Guidance (ARTG) will be published on the internet on the 1 of April. Part 1 had been circulated to agent reps in advance of the TRSG meeting. HMRC explained Part 1 principally covers reviews. Part 2 covers applications and appeals to tribunals. HMRC explained the guidance may still need to be amended later. HMRC asked agent reps for their views.

5.1.1. Agent reps agreed for the ARTG to be published early and amended later.

5.2. HMRC explained Rose Egan will continue to own the ARTG after the project ends on the 31st of July 2009.

5.3. Bryan Pay mentioned the Tribunals Service and Colin Bishopp thought the ARTG was a good product.

6. HMRC Organisation

6.1. HMRC explained Business Units have set up teams to carry out reviews. They have ensured remoteness from decision makers. However it may not be possible to fully separate the review officer from the decision maker. HMRC are planning to put in place governance of central ownership of reviews.

7. HMRC Clearing House

7.1. Marcia Martin gave a presentation on the HMRC clearing house. A live test was done on the 5th of March with the HMRC Clearing House, the Tribunals Service Central Processing Centre and ten HMRC appeals units. The test went very well and both departments worked well together. HMRC explained the process will be invisible to customers/ agents.

7.2. AP3: HMRC to electronically circulate Clearing House presentation to agent reps.

7.3. Agent reps expressed concerns about the Central Processing Centre being staffed by HMRC staff on secondment. HMRC clarified this was not the case. Only one person from HMRC is on secondment to the Tribunals Service as the ‘registrar’ to help categorise cases quickly. The remaining staff are all from the Tribunals Service.

8. Reviewers increasing amounts of tax

8.1. Agent reps were concerned that customers should not be deterred from asking for a review by the fear that the review team will increase the amount of tax due in a dispute.

8.2. It was agreed that HMRC reviewers can increase the amount of tax if there is something obvious has not been taxed when it is clear that it should be. However it was also agreed that reviewing officers should not attempt to change judgemental decisions such as private use proportions unless they are changing them in the customers favour.

9. Assistance in preparing cases for the tribunal

9.1. Derek Allen and other Agent reps are concerned that HMRC should give assistance, particularly to the unrepresented, in preparing cases for the tribunal. HMRC take the view that it is the duty of the tribunal to assist people in their appeals and this is an important part of the separation between HMRC and the tribunal.

10. The future of TRSG meetings

10.1. HMRC explained they would like to build on successful engagement and wish to continue consultation with external stakeholders.

10.2. From 1 April 2009 HMRC becomes a stakeholder in the new tribunal. The Tribunals Service of the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) are planning to have a user group with HMRC as a member.

10.3. The HMRC Tribunals Reform Project (TRP) have passed some ‘business as usual’ roles to Central Policy. The director of Central Policy wants to set up a ‘reviews and appeals’ forum. He will decide the membership but TRP will suggest including external and MoJ representation.

10.4. HMRC would like to have another meeting at the end of May. HMRC will come back to that meeting with proposals for future of TRSG.

10.5. HMRC are planning to discuss reviews and appeals with the Business Customer Unit (BCU) forums. HMRC asked agent reps for their views. Agent reps expressed concerns about individual customers who may not be catered for by BCU.

AP4: HMRC to discuss representation for ‘individuals’ with BCU.

11. Summary

11.1. HMRC thanked agent reps for all their input. There will be continuing debate after the 1st of April and would welcome any comments after go live.

12. A.O.B

12.1. HMRC distributed a copy of the internal review trial evaluation paper to agent reps.

AP5: HMRC to circulate electronic copy of internal review trial evaluation paper to agent reps.

The meeting ended at 4.30 pm.

Summary of Action Points

AP1: HMRC to circulate the second part of the review officer GLU to agent reps.

AP2: HMRC to find out if it’s possible to include the review officers direct dial number in SA640.

AP2A: HMRC to circulate electronic version of SA636 and SA640 for comments

AP3: HMRC to electronically circulate ‘Clearing House’ presentation to agent reps.

AP4: HMRC to discuss representation for ‘individuals’ with BCU.

AP5: HMRC to circulate electronic copy of internal review trial evaluation paper to agent reps.