Tribunals Reform Stakeholder Group (TRSG) Meeting

Date: 12 May 2009

Time: 2.10 pm to 4.05 pm

HMRC:

David Hinstridge - Chair (DHi) Tribunals Reform Project (TRP)
Tony Verran - (TV) TRP
Andrew Jackson - (AJ) Central Policy (CP)
Jennie Vaughan - (JV) TRP
Luke Liddiard - (LL) CP
Mumtaz Patel - (MP) TRP
Gordon Wiseman - (GW) Local Compliance (LC)
Kenneth McLuskey - (KM) TRP


Tribunals Service (TS)

Bryan Pay - (BP)
Claire Walker - (CW)

Agent Representatives:

Robert Maas - (RM) IIT/ICAEW
Ron Downhill - (RD) Law Society
Robin Williamson - (RW) LITRG
Derek Allen - (DA) ICAS
Penny Hamilton - (PH) CIOT

1. Welcome and Introductions

1.1. HMRC welcomed everyone to the meeting and introductions were made.

2. Minutes and action points from previous meeting

2.1. The minutes from the meeting held on 19 March 2009 were agreed.
2.2. The outstanding action points from the meeting were reviewed.
2.3. It was agreed AP: 1, 2a, 3 & 5 had been completed.
2.4. AP2: HMRC explained it was not possible to include the review officers direct dial number in SA640. HMRC explained this was due to the departments’ policy for calls to be made to contact centres. The reason being they are better placed to deal with calls as they are open for longer hours. It’s also cheaper (from a landline) to call an ‘0845’ number than directly to Londonderry.
2.5. HMRC mentioned they have agreed for the following helplines to take calls regarding internal reviews queries:

  • Self Assessment helpline
  • CIS helpline
  • Employer helpline


2.6. HMRC confirmed the helplines would take the caller’s details and arrange for Londonderry to return the call.
2.7. HMRC explained the review team in Londonderry were dedicated to carrying out reviews. HMRC mentioned customers could communicate with the Londonderry team in writing.
2.8. HMRC asked agent reps for feedback, regarding calls to contact centre helplines. Agent reps suggested HMRC carried out blind testing.
AP1: HMRC to look into the possibility of blind testing contact centre helpline numbers for internal review queries.
2.9. Agent reps asked how the helpline numbers would interact with agent direct lines.
AP2: HMRC to look into helpline number’s interaction with agent direct lines.
2.10. Agent reps asked if the helpline numbers would be published on the Internet. HMRC explained there were no plans at this moment in time, to publish those helpline numbers, however the numbers have been published on the Internet for queries regarding SA, CIS & Employers.
2.11. Agent reps queried if there is a helpline for VAT & duties queries. HMRC explained the majority of those queries would be dealt with by LC.
2.12. AP4 covered in item 8

3. April 2009 stats

3.1. HMRC provided a snapshot of stats, from the review team in Londonderry, on 8 May 2008:

  • 357 review requests have been received
  • papers received for 190 cases
  • 76 cases were overturned
  • 46 cases were upheld
  • the balance of these cases are still under review

3.2. HMRC explained the reason for overturning the decision was largely due to new information being received with the review request.
3.3. Agent reps expressed concerns regarding the guidance related to penalties and evidence. HMRC explained the results represented the first month only and therefore not to draw conclusions at such an early stage.
3.4. HMRC mentioned they are putting feedback arrangements in place.
3.5. HMRC pointed out there may be a need to revise the guidance following tribunal decisions.
3.6. HMRC mentioned the review correspondence will be archived in Londonderry when the case is settled.
3.7. Agent reps suggested publishing the stats for the first quarter in Tax Journal/Tax Adviser.
AP3: CP to consider suggestion of publishing first quarter stats in Tax Journal/Tax Adviser.
3.8. Agent reps queried how many cases were from unrepresented customers. HMRC explained they did not currently have that information but agreed to circulate the information when it did become available.
AP4: HMRC to circulate stats for unrepresented customers to agent reps.

3.9. HMRC provided a breakdown of the types of cases:

  • PAYE : 87
  • SA: 193
  • CIS: 33
  • Other: 44


AP5: HMRC to circulate stats for Londonderry and the whole of HMRC to agent reps.

4. Tribunals Service (TS) update

4.1. TS explained they have received 400 new appeals. 95 per cent of those appeals were for indirect tax cases. For direct tax: three paper appeals and two closure notices have been received. The direct tax appeals were for cases which did not get heard under the old regime by the Commissioners and did not go through the transitional process.
4.2. TS mentioned cases that were adjourned very near to go live, should have gone through the transitional process.
4.3. HMRC explained they had identified there was a problem and therefore actively encouraged cases to be put through the transitional process.
4.4. TS confirmed they had received 1,400 transitional cases. They also reported that they had received one application for ‘permission to appeal’. (Note: subsequently it was discovered that this was an application for a first instance hearing before the Upper Tribunal).
4.5. HMRC queried the numbering of cases on the TS website. TS confirmed the numbers were not consecutive as they relate to all tribunal cases and not just tax.
4.6. TS mentioned the process with the Clearing House is working well and cases are moving forward.


5. Local Compliance (LC) update


5.1. GW provided an update from LC:
5.2. LC have approximately 350 staff in their appeals unit. Out of those staff, approximately 100 will be dealing with reviews or working for the Clearing House.
5.3. The training for review officers is based on the Manchester trial. The training includes online and face to face training.
5.4. Any show stoppers that have been highlighted are being addressed and improvements are subsequently made.
5.5. The department is ensuring full representation is being made at hearings.
5.6. RM queried the worked example used at the learning conference and the issue regarding extension for cases, which have not been worked correctly.
5.7. HMRC explained they had used that particular example to prepare review officers for reality.
AP6: HMRC to circulate worked example to agent reps.
5.8. HMRC confirmed if there was ever a case of internal conflict between the review officer and the decision maker, then the review officer’s decision would be final.
5.9. HMRC confirmed they had put quality controls in place, for internal review decisions.
5.10. Agent reps queried if the Londonderry review team will be dealing with reasonable excuse penalty cases. HMRC confirmed the Londonderry team only deal with fixed filing penalties and late payment surcharges.

6. New products


6.1. HMRC provided handouts of the following paper hearing products and examples of HMRC application forms:

  • SA633 original version
  • SA633 revised version
  • SA638 original version
  • SA638 revised version
  • SA641
  • SA527(1) & SA527(2)
  • SA528
  • SA631
  • Application for notice under Schedule 36
  • Application for proceedings for penalties under section 100C (3)

6.2. The decision maker letter ‘SA633’ has now been amended since the previous TRSG meeting. Comments from RW and RM have been incorporated in the revised version. The previous version will still be in use until the revised version has been entered on to HMRC’s IT system.
6.3. HMRC thanked RW & RM for their constructive comments.
6.4. The review conclusion letter ‘SA638’ has been revised since the previous TRSG meeting.
6.5. Agent reps suggested adding a field for ‘agent reference’ to SA641.
6.6. Agent reps queried what would happen if there was no response to SA527 (1) and SA527 (2). HMRC explained they would most likely issue SA528 but would confirm this to agent reps after the meeting.
AP7: HMRC to confirm what action would be taken, when the customer has not responded to SA527 (1) and SA527 (2).
6.7. HMRC pointed out SA631 and other application forms will only be used between HMRC and TS. They will not be visible to customers.
AP8: HMRC to electronically circulate new products to agent reps.

7. Agent issues


7.1. No issues were raised by agent reps.

8. Summary


8.1. HMRC explained they were moving towards the end of the project and members of the team are moving on to other jobs. It is intended for the project team to formally close on the 30 June 2009.
8.2. CP will be setting up an internal forum for reviews and appeals. This body will consider external views but details have yet to be established.
8.3. Eileen Raffertyand Andrew Jackson will take forward any representation issues such as LITRG.
8.4. A discussion took place regarding having another TRSG meeting. HMRC explained they have booked a provisional date for the 30 June 2009. It was agreed if nearer the time, there were no emerging issues then the meeting could be cancelled.
8.5. HMRC thanked agent reps for their input and asked them to pass gratitude to their respective organisations. Agent reps said they were grateful to HMRC for being reciprocal.
AP9: HMRC to confirm meeting provisionally booked for 30 June 2009.

The meeting ended at 4.05pm.

Summary of Action Points from 12 May 2009:

AP1: HMRC to look into the possibility of blind testing contact centre helpline numbers, for internal review queries.

AP2: HMRC to look into helpline number’s interaction with agent direct lines.

AP3: CP to consider suggestion of publishing first quarter stats in Tax Journal/Tax Adviser.

AP4: HMRC to circulate stats for unrepresented customers, to agent reps.

AP5: HMRC to circulate stats for Londonderry and the whole of HMRC to agent reps.

AP6: HMRC to circulate worked example to agent reps.

AP7: HMRC to confirm what action would be taken, when the customer has not responded to SA527 (1) and SA527 (2).

AP8: HMRC to electronically circulate new products to agent reps.

AP9: HMRC to confirm meeting provisionally booked for 30 June 2009.